Season 3: Promising Practices for Health Equity Podcast

The Final Episode!

Season 3, Episode 8 (Epilogue) | March 26, 2026

Speakers: Krystal Lee, J. Robin Moon, Cody Cotton, and Mandy LaBreche

Mandy LaBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity. I’m your host, Krystal Lee and I am here with my colleagues and friends. Cody Cotton, Mandy LaBreche and Dr J. Robin Moon.

Hi friends. Thank you for being with us today in sunny, sunny Chicago. I lied, it’s not sunny at all. Yeah. So we are here to debrief, our final season of Promising Practices for Health Equity, season three, and it’s the finale of the entire podcast. So I am curious. Well, let’s start with what we usually do, our check in. So, here’s our check in question. What is one word that describes how you are feeling as we close this season and as we close the podcast?

I can start. I am feeling fulfilled. As you know, this is something that I’ve wanted to do for a while, and I’m so grateful that IRL provided me the opportunity to do a project like this. And it has been such a phenomenal experience working with you all to create this thing that we’ve done together, and so fulfilled is my word, and I’m going to toss it to you, Cody, because you’re looking right at me?

Cody Cotton 01:42

All right. My word is grateful

Krystal Lee 01:45

Yeah, he was always gonna say grateful.

Cody Cotton  01:50

You know, you learn a lot throughout this process. You learn a lot of working with some amazing people. So grateful is usually the common feeling going around. So I’m gonna throw Mandy on spot.

Mandy LaBreche  02:01

Okay, I’m gonna be boring and repeat. I should have gone second everyone. I’m also feeling grateful in this moment as we wrap up. Just grateful for the opportunity, grateful for myself that I didn’t back out of doing the podcast and just grateful for the full IRL experience and everything that it was and its ups and downs, and just all the connections that were made and all the memories will really, truly stick with me for a lifetime. Robin…

J. Robin Moon 02:37

My word is future. It’s not an adjective. But even within this podcast making, I’m looking at Cody, not quite half my age, but I feel like we’re almost like two generations, turning 31… 53 right? So she always gotta get your age just to jab in, but that’s a beautiful thing. I love your age, and I learned so much from just like by diffusion, like infusion, like, how else am I gonna get the experience of being with the younger generation? You know? So I feel there’s so much more I will do for the rest of my life in the future because of this experience.

Krystal Lee  03:34

Codykin’s making an impact.

Krystal Lee  03:42

So how about we jump right into some reflections, right? So let’s…. Across this season we’ve talked with… we started out with Luis and Ashley talking about the intersection between storytelling, narrative change and restorative justice practices, and then we went into our story jam, where, which was the recording from our last October meeting. Very sad. I wonder if you all have any reflections about the wrapping up of the IRL experience at the last meeting. And maybe we start there.

Cody Cotton  04:23

Yeah, start quick. Short. It was good to be refreshed. Listen to the podcast again this morning. And thinking about Luis asked Ashley the question, you know, tell me the story. Why did you get started? And I thought about that was all of our stories within I guess you will say, IRL. We all had our own stories, and we got a chance to share that during the last meeting, but it was something important. Basically, we all have our own narrative, and it’s a reason why we do what we do. It’s a reason why we come together, and it’s the reason why we even came together to create this podcast. There’s a story behind everything, sometimes being able to be intentional with those narratives, we can create real change.

Krystal Lee  05:06

Yeah, I remember Luis saying that there are no untold stories. And, you know, the story, the story insists on being told, it will be told. And I think I’m grateful for that because, you know, and sometimes I don’t feel like being the one to share whatever experience that I’m having, but it’ll, it will come up. You know, that was one of my takeaways. Anybody else…

Mandy LaBreche  05:34

It felt kind of surreal, especially just seeing like, I don’t know, I felt like it was just a full circle moment where it’s like this community has been created, and 20 plus people feel comfortable enough in this space with these people to share stories and be extremely vulnerable. And I just think that just speaks volumes about what the IRL program has done in the 10 years.

J. Robin Moon 06:07

Yeah, I didn’t expect the kind of I mean, I was always proud of, you know, IRLs work and, you know, all our participation in it, but I don’t think I expected the kind of change that we ended up seeing, not in that way. And I am always one to get really, like, creep, you know, crap out about using the word transformative, like, because the “transformation” gets used all the time. Like Medicaid transformation, like, we transform nothing really. I’m very cynical like that, but I really feel like our Story Jam, from the organizers perspective, to put that together, I ended up really believing in the power of storytelling and story, hearing and normalizing it, you know, and like story, stories bringing us together and creating the safety. And then something happened to everybody. I know I changed. I know I transformed. And how do you measure that? And that’s Mandy’s final storytelling in singing, how do you measure the impact? So listeners, if you haven’t watched one of the StoryJam episodes, you have to this is going to be like, what is America’s Got Talent? Like, you should be on that thing. It was amazing. Yeah, I will not give it away. You have to watch it. But, yeah, so, like, how do you measure that kind of impact? And I really feel like we created that for everybody, and that is, like, where do you see that from? Like, academic grant program, you know? So, yeah, that’s what I take away.

Cody Cotton  07:54

Yeah, something you just said, you talked about it creating that safety, I think it created a lot of courage. You remember that last day the list wasn’t all the way full, right?

J. Robin Moon 08:05

Both years, yeah,

Cody Cotton  08:08

you’re hearing people tell stories, and you’re seeing people come to the back table saying, Hey, can I add my name to the list? To the point we have to add extra section, just again, the courage to create it, because everybody you know feel, I’m not sure if “called” is the right word, but they feel like they’re at least able to…

Krystal Lee  08:32

That really, that’s a good transition into our the next question that I kind of want to get your input on, one of the things that Ashley talks about in the conversation with her and Luis was about the space that was created for fellows because the leadership modeled that vulnerability. Tell me about your experience modeling vulnerability in this space.

Mandy LaBreche  09:00

I can start, I feel like my answer is pretty straightforward to this, and it was just that I think I showed up as myself, like going all the way back until before I wasn’t even hired to work for IRL. But I think I really refrained from kind of censoring myself. I don’t know that I would necessarily recommend that. I think I got a little lucky with IRL, that they kind of embraced me and all that I am. Answer to that is just being myself. I remember when I was interviewing for the Program Manager position about, yeah, it was probably 10 years ago. It was probably January 2016 which is wild. And I was interviewing with a panel of three folks. One was the founding director, Michael Oaks, and I remember one of the interview questions that they asked was, tell me what your leadership style is and describe that leadership style. And I was just like, “Oh my gosh. Like, they’re looking for some refined, like, actually documented leadership style, and I don’t really know any”.

So I didn’t try to, like, fake it until I make it. And I gave the most ridiculous answer. I said my leadership style is gentle leadership, and I tried to describe what I meant by gentle leadership. And I remember, I got done with the interview, and I was talking to a friend, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, they asked me this leadership style question. I gave the answer of gentle leadership, whatever that is, I think I blew it, and there’s no chance I’m getting this job with an answer of gentle leadership”. But thank goodness it was not a deal breaker.

J. Robin Moon 10:50

You you didn’t give the citation, so…

Mandy LaBreche  10:56

But maybe I should, maybe I should do something with the whole gentle leadership. I don’t know, I think, I think, in short, I just showed up as myself, and that was me being vulnerable. And I think it just really helped, like, I just think when someone has the ability and the space is created for you to just show up as yourself, I just think it just can really help build something special in terms of people believing in you, people trusting you. So, yeah, that’s my answer.

J. Robin Moon 11:32

Fantastic. I have something to follow up on that I’ve been thinking about this. I think there’s a total flawed logic in like, hiring people to make up a team, and it’s a very individualized thinking. So we need somebody with this skill or that trait, and then you bring people together and, like, it’s like a ingredients list, you know, of a recipe. That’s not how it works. What I’ve been realizing about us, like, I don’t know, like, Who would have thought that the four of us would make, I mean, individually, we can be very great, like we are great, but, you know, to bring us together as a team? I don’t know if it was so obvious, like, “oh, we needed somebody exactly like Cody, exactly”. You know, the part that is not really thought through in my mind is that things happen.

Something happens when we get together and we morph into a unit, so that is not measurable at the individual level, right, based on our individual qualities, but like, it’s something that only the four of us can… it’s an aggregate property, if you will, and that’s how leadership grows. And I think that in the. just in general, in our modern society, we don’t think about it as a communal, you know, aggregate quality. I think that I’m very lucky to have met all of you. I really don’t think I would have thought like, say, five years ago, like they’ve come up with the team of, you know, four, four pocket before the… four is too many.  And here we are. I can’t think of anybody else, and I’m actually thinking like we should continue doing this, maybe outside IRL. So just echoing, building on your point…

Cody Cotton  13:36

I’ll be repeating, yeah, just showing up as your authentic self, being vulnerable and again, being able to adapt. Adaptability. I think that’s key in leadership, because it happens so often. No one year was the same in IRL, yeah.

Krystal Lee  13:57

I think for me, I knew that I had, like this, the education to qualify for a position like the one that I had, right? But one of the benefits, personal benefits, that I’ve gotten from engagement with IRL is that I, as a result of my experience, I now believe that I have something to contribute to a team like this. Whereas before you know how you go into interviews and like you’re you’re saying, you’re trying to like, you’re saying like, you’re trying to say the right things, right and then you come up with gentle leadership. Now you’re 10 years into this program. But I mean, I, you know, I did my interview to join, to be the guards of the team, and you know, I was, I was intent on. My intention was to, like, make a good contribution to the team. But I didn’t, I didn’t realize at the time how much of a community that we would become, and how much confidence that I gained, personally and professionally, from making myself vulnerable enough to engage fully with y’all. And I just didn’t expect it to come back tenfold, like I didn’t think about the fact be me being vulnerable and putting myself in a situation where I feel like these people, you could easily judge me, or I could say the wrong things, and you’d be like you. “She shouldn’t be here anyway”, but even in when I did ask questions or, you know, offer suggestions and so on, just the the welcoming kind of space that was created amongst this team, the IRL team, more broadly, but certainly that this podcast team has really built my confidence. And so moving forward now, out of this experience, I feel like a different person. I feel more confident. And so, you know, in some of these spaces, it feels like, in some of the leadership experiences that I’ve had with other leaders, like it feels like they don’t want to bring their authentic selves to the table. They feel like and even in past leadership experiences, I have felt like I had to have this leadership personality, right? I remember separating Krystal from Dr Lee. Dr Lee shows up in the office, and Krystal stays at home. And I felt like I had the most beneficial relationships with students, with with colleagues when I was myself, because I’m letting them know who I am, and then I’m making space for them to show up as their self, and then we can build a more authentic relationship foundation right for the work that we’re doing together. And I find, I feel that that’s an often overlooked element of leadership, like there is value in being vulnerable, setting that example for the people who are around you, and being able to make the, you know, the impact on others, but also, like acknowledging an impact on myself.

Cody Cotton  17:05

Yeah. And I was gonna say that’s how you truly get the opportunity to model for the next generation, next leaders. Because if, whether it’s the students you’re working with, it, if they don’t get an opportunity to see you lead in that type of way, they only lead with their guard up, fear based and true leadership is down to the core of who the person is, the foundation, and we had a chance to see that. You know, whether you say, from your 30s, 40s and 50s, you have the opportunity to lead for the next generation. Because I tell you all often, you know, I try to think about, what do I want to do in my 30s, what I want to do my 40s and my 50s? Often, when I look at you all, it’s an amazing example. I have to be able to see that leadership.

J. Robin Moon 17:54

at least for the next two decades…

Krystal Lee  17:59

You gotta work on those 50s and then let us know… So let’s, um, let’s transition a little bit to talk about the actual Story Jam. And so last two episodes of the podcast, we’ve played the stories for folks. And if you haven’t listened, I suggest that you go back and listen. We worked with this amazing artist, Kris Wittmann, to create a visual of the that represents the world that we are trying to create as an IRL community. And so what she did was she listened in on the Story Jam, listen to the stories that folks were were telling, and she created this image that’s where you’re all looking at right now. We are all looking at right now. So I’m wondering, in looking at this image, are there any stories that stuck out to you, or what is what does this image mean to you? What is your experience of this image?

Mandy LaBreche  18:54

I think one that really jumped out to me, especially in this current moment, was, it was from Sandra’s story, and it’s the visual of her standing up with her arms raised, saying, make ourselves visible, to show up for immigrants. And I won’t lie, I’m a little anxious to talk about this on a public platform like this, as all of you know, our listeners probably don’t know. I live in Minneapolis, and the University of Minnesota Twin Cities campus, which is where the IRL program was housed, is in Minneapolis, and for the past, probably it’s been four weeks now, I mean, our federal immigration and customs enforcement have just been terrorizing communities and the Twin Cities, area and beyond.

It’s horrifying. I mean, they are assaulting, abusing, abducting, kidnapping, they’re targeting children, literal children, and they’re detaining folks that are either US citizens. And a lot of folks that are here legally in the US, and it’s, it’s just literally been so awful. They’re targeting schools, preschools, bus stops, gas stations, grocery stores, hospitals, you name it. There’s no limits to what they won’t do. And it’s really been truly awful.

If you’re a person with black or brown skin, regardless of your immigration status, regardless of if you’re a US citizen, you are scared, and with that fear every day, you have to decide if you’re going to be in hiding or if you are going to take the risk and go to work because you need to make money to pay your rent and other basic things, it’s been horrifying to see such an attack. You know, it feels like the federal government is waging a war on the people of Minnesota. Feels truly awful day to day. It’s like the stories you hear, the videos you see every day. It’s awful.

On the flip side, you’re seeing so much beauty and people coming together and showing up for one another. You’re seeing so many acts of resistance and all shapes and forms. I mean, we’re talking protests, big and small, shouting, “Fuck ICE”, and also groups singing songs of resistance, songs of love, songs of care. Neighbors are driving their neighbors to work, neighbors laying down in the back seat so they won’t be seen by ICE. Wow. The mutual aid is flowing. People are raising funds to go towards food and basic household necessities to go to so people can afford their rent, so people who have been detained unlawfully can have a lawyer to represent them. Like there’s just lots of stuff going on. People that have 3D printers at their home are printing out 1000s of whistles, and they’re being distributed… being distributed at coffee shops and libraries and neighborhood stores and yeah. So you’re seeing all kinds of resistance, beautiful. And I think I can’t talk about this without acknowledging and just holding space for two Minneapolis residents who were shot and killed by ICE simply for trying to help their neighbor, trying to be the helper.

I was telling a few of you yesterday I saw a post. Sorry, I’m rambling, but yeah, I saw a post that really just like, sticks with me. And it was about Mr. Rogers, and it was like Mr. Rogers said to look for the helpers, but they’re killing and harming the helpers. What I’ve learned through experiencing this, being being in Minneapolis and seeing awful stuff happening every day is just the importance of community. It doesn’t even have to be formed over 10 years. I think there’s crisis situations, like what is happening in this country now, where people show up for each other that maybe wouldn’t have in a different situation and a less severe situation, but like at the end of the day, I feel like all we have is each other.

Krystal Lee  23:29

I think you make a really beautiful point about people who probably wouldn’t normally, excuse me, people who wouldn’t probably wouldn’t normally engage in certain ways, feeling compelled to do so in support of their community. And I think about, I don’t know who, I don’t know if anybody has said this particular thing, but it’s something that I’ve learned from the past few years working with Ashley and Luis and with you all together in community that come it occurs to me that community creates community, right? So you are helping your neighbor, and then somebody else sees you helping your neighbor, and maybe they feel also compelled and it grows right. And I think that if you just start, if you just start, then it’ll, it can, it will grow right. If you nurture it, it will, it will grow. And even if all you can do is a small thing, it is still a valuable thing, and it can still there are benefits that can be that can come as a result of that small thing that you have done.

And that relates to the story that Jon told at the story jam, about circling where. And how his friends used to they would just pick up, pick each other up as they went around the community, and then they would keep going until they dropped each other back off. And then how he’s recreated that in our neighborhood. We live in a neighborhood just outside Baltimore. Baltimore is no stranger to some of this stuff, and we, you know, in our neighborhood, we are much younger than the majority of people in our neighborhood, but through walking our dog, you know, and getting to know the other dogs in the neighborhood, then we also get to know people. And then, you know, we were shoveling snow the other day, and our neighbor across the street saw that we were using a hoe to try to break up this, break up the ice. And he brought over two shovels, you know, for us to, you know. And then when we were done with everything, we lent our shovels to our next door neighbor. And, you know, and our next door neighbors are new. They moved in maybe a year ago. So we, we are the community is expanding, right? They now feel like they can ask us a favor, and we ask them favors, or, you know, they help each other. We help each other.

Jon also mentioned in the story that the neighborhood folks who walk we me and my dog do neighborhood watch because she’s nosy. So we go, we go sit outside on the front lawn, and then people, just, people are walking their dogs. They just stop by, and before you know it, we have, like, a whole conference of like seven dogs in the yard. And I love dogs, and you know, everybody who loves dogs also, we’re just, we’re all here. And it just, it builds on itself. In maybe, I know maybe exponential is a little bit too much, but it builds on itself. And if we just start, I think we can create more of the world that we want to see.

J. Robin Moon 26:57

What about from the graphic, which…

Krystal Lee  26:59

it’s this, it’s um, in the middle, kind of, to the far right, to the right of the Equity Bridge… you see a little bus, yeah, right here where it says circling. So that’s my doggy, Sydney. That was Jon talking about, about circling.

Mandy LaBreche 27:18

Yeah, I love that circling

J. Robin Moon 27:21

I was looking like right above that dancing, yeah, Joy. Also, I think that does exponentially increase, and small acts, thinking about that, looking at the dancing…

Cody Cotton  27:41

And at the bottom, and just looking at all those principles and values that we hold together and how much came up even throughout the stores,

Krystal Lee  27:50

I think building community is, is, is the work, right? And that’s, that’s what we heard even from season two folks like community, relationship and trust is really what came out in those conversations. And I think that if there was a point to end this on, it’s that, you know, those three things are worth investing in. They are worth prioritizing. They are worth being intentional about and then putting attention towards right? I think I am happy with that being the major takeaway from this project that we have been doing over the past couple years – the podcast – but then also the 10 years of IRL, what we’ve learned is the research is important, and the research needs to be done in ways that are methodologically appropriate, and so on. And all of that is true and real. AND there are ways that we can do whatever work that we’re doing in ways that prioritize relationship, community and trust.

Cody Cotton  28:53

And it all starts with relationship…

Krystal Lee  28:59

Any other quick things we want to mention before we close out?

J. Robin Moon 29:05

You should really watch, listeners, the Story Jam and watch to the end of Mandy singing,

Mandy LeBreche 29:13

You don’t have to watch…

J. Robin Moon 29:18

yeah. It’s nothing without it, yeah?

Krystal Lee  29:21

Mandy did a great job of concretizing…Is that a word?

J. Robin Moon

Also like speaking of being vulnerable, yeah?

Krystal Lee  29:33

Concretizing What it has looked like to be part of the IRL community, what some of our outputs have been, but also like feeling safe to be ourselves.

J. Robin Moon

You embody. You embodied it. Yeah, community, yeah, and IRL…

Mandy LaBreche  29:47

That was the biggest private room karaoke experience i’ve had yet… it’s usually like 10 to 15 people…

Cody Cotton 29:56

The whole room screaming, clapping… we threw up our little flashlights, waving.

Krystal Lee  30:00

That it was so great. Oh God, it was great. You really, Robin is right? You truly, in that moment, embodied IRL, the community that we created. And, you know, I’m not surprised, it was you. Yeah, it was always gonna be you.

Krystal Lee  30:23

Listeners, thank you so much for being with us on this journey together. We’re so grateful that you spent time with us to follow along on our journey. If you would like to support this podcast, please feel free to share it with a friend on social media,

J. Robin Moon 30:42

four stars, yes.

Mandy LaBreche

Five stars!

Krystal Lee  30:51

If you feel like going above and beyond, please leave a review. Rate us five stars on Spotify, Apple podcast, please, please watch the Story Jams and our episodes from this season, season three of the podcast. Thank you for being with us on this journey and farewell.

Cody Cotton 31:17

I’ll take a photo of this. Ian cut this out. No or leave it. I love it.

Mandy LaBreche  31:28

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

StoryJAM Bonus Episode – Luis Ortega’s Story: Undocumented Time (recorded live from the 2025 IRL MN Leadership Meeting)

Season 3, Episode 7 | March 12, 2026

Speakers: Mandy LeBreche, Krystal Lee, Luis Ortega

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the promising practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:19

Welcome back to promising practices for health equity, a podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL, a national program funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. I’m your host. Crystal Lee. Our last two episodes featured our story jam, where we shared the stories that were told by several of our IRL fellows and alumni at the final IRL Minnesota leadership meeting in 2025 the story jam was expertly facilitated by our friend and colleague, Luis Ortega, of storytellers for change, and today, we are excited to share a special bonus episode from the event. It’s a live, unfiltered story that is real, raw and offered with courageous vulnerability. Luis tell us about undocumented time community.

Luis Ortega  01:13

Let me begin by setting the stage. A few months ago at our IRL closing gathering in Minneapolis, I had the honor of facilitating and hosting a narrative workshop and story jam, an invitation for members of this community to share their stories, witness each other and practice presencing. It is my belief that presencing, the practice of being fully present while sensing the highest possible future that is trying to emerge requires us to slow down with care, to listen beneath urgency, to notice what is forming before it has language, to hold that possibility, to give it life through story and then to embody it. So to prepare to host our story jam, just as I invited the IRL community to reflect and craft their stories. I, too, began writing. I titled my narrative undocumented time, and I am here today to tell you more about it. Take a deep breath with me. Breathe in. Hold it and breathe out. Since the age of 14, I have lived as an undocumented immigrant in this country, and have so much more. And yet this aspect of my life experience has shaped so much of my life, my art, my facilitation, my community organizing, my research, my family, my friendships, and yes, my writing over the last few years, and especially during the IRL gathering, and again, these last few days, my writing has turned towards an exploration of what it means to undo, to place an on that is the letters U and N before award that is not simply to negate a word, but to loosen its grip. Afraid becomes unafraid. Bound becomes unbound. Timely becomes untimely. The world does not disappear. It opens. And though these pairs may seem opposed, they belong to each other. We cannot understand fear without understanding what it means to release it. We cannot understand structure without understanding what it means to spill beyond it. The same is true for time, identity, freedom, belonging, and so much more. So what does it mean then, to exist between documentation and undocumentation? So what does it do to a person, a neighbor, a family, a community, to be marked as undocumented? What does it mean to undo a person undocumented? I spent so much time, 24 years, three months and five days, to be precise, as of the moment of this recording, trying to make sense of this work, trying to give it meaning, trying to resist it. I’ve done this through poetry, research, essays, scars, workshops, diplomas, conversations, protests, public testimony, letters, tech applications, story circles and more. My undocumentedness is very well documented, and yet presencing in this moment as something else of me this moment is asking me to let go, to let go of this binary documentation and undocumentation, to dream beyond it, to say, I have never been undocumented. There is no such thing as undocumented people. We exist. We are here, we belong. So how do I respond to this moment, to this as to let go, take a deep breath with me. Breathe in. So let us return to presencing. When I speak of presencing, I mean the practice of feeling and witnessing, witnessing myself and witnessing you, witnessing our present reality and witnessing our histories and allowing myself to feel tired, hopeful, afraid, angry and free. I’m capable of imagining and giving my full self to build a just and caring future. And so much of my capacity to do this, to witness and to feel, has been shaped through my undocumented experience. So letting go of that lens, it’s so hard. It’s hard precisely because it has also been a site of humanity and of becoming I learned to love my queerness while being undocumented. I learned to heal in the margins. I learned to organize in the shadows. I learned to dance where I was told not to exist, and I learned to speak myself into light. And yet, if I dive deep into history, into policy, into structure, into the machinery required to undocument entire peoples and emerge still gripping that label, am I not replicating the very say systems I recessed systems that disappear bodies, take bodies, kidnap bodies, erase bodies, deport bodies. This is not new. This is history. It’s our history. This country, in its nearly 250 years since the Declaration of Independence and its longer art since colonization arrived on Turtle Island, has mastered these practices had to erase while extracting. And communities have resisted How to Disappear people harm land and weaponize narrative and communities have resisted how to take bodies and labor while denying humanity. And communities have resisted to abolitionist movements, Freedom dreaming and indigenous resistance and flourishing through sanctuary networks and black liberation, through queer justice and joyful gatherings, through labor organizing and mutual aid. Again and again in every generation, communities have resisted this too is our history. Take a deep breath with me. Breathe in. Hold time, breathe out. And that resistance is not behind us. It is alive in this moment. It is alive in this moment, in the very place where I wrote these words, undocumented time and to be confronted with the terror of now, we must reckon with the histories and systems that have learned how to call life illegal and protect that violence through law and force. So let us pause here then allowed us to confront this word illegal, when I am called and illegal, and I carry this word like a marked edge into my body. I peel it back, layer by layer until I reach its source. And what I find is not truth. What I find is trauma, not only a trauma that I carry and seek to heal, but also a mirror I hold back to reflect the trauma of those who place this war upon my body, inherited harm dressed up as law on grief history disguised as order. What I find is an ill legal system. Let me slow this down, Ill as in, sick as in, wounded as in fracture, legal as in, justified as in, normalized, as in, enforce system as Ian pattern, rehearse an institution, as in, a choreography of harm, socialized across generations, as in, a machine addicted to pain, profit and patriotic pride. And is it any wonder then than an ill legal system carrying centuries of unresolved trauma in its political and social body would enact cruelty as governance and terror as law? And it isn’t any wonder why this ill legal system hides behind masks and narratives of security, order and safety, while justifying public executions, violating civil rights, inciting terror and sacrificing the principles of a true democracy in the name of power. These last few nights, I have gone to bed praying, saying the names of kit Porter and Renee good and Alex pratney. I think of Mahmoud khilal and remexa ott. I think of Leah madrian, Conejo Ramos and his father taken by ice. I think of the families and children who just a couple days ago, staged a protest inside a Texas Detention Center holding handmade signs, their voices shouting, let us out. Let us out. Let us out. And I feel the weight of a much altered grief of names unrecorded and communities unmade, of ancestors, songs and traditions buried beneath industries and borders, and I hear them too, their stories scaring our whole humanity, their voices pressing against this moment, also telling us. Let us out. Let us out. Let us out. Take a deep breath with me. Breathe in. Hold and breathe out. Community.

Luis Ortega  10:16

The longer I hear these voices echoing across time while I sit with this word undocumented, the more I realize what is truly undocumented in this country is our collective capacity to affirm one another’s humanity. What remains unrecorded is reconciliation, repair, healing and justice. If undocumentation is the machinery of disappearance, then perhaps our work is the unwavering act of caring presence, to say the names, to carry the stories, to witness each other, to refuse the lie that any life is illegal, to organize and resist in loving solidarity and perhaps most importantly, to be untimely undocumentedness has taught me a lot about time, how it stretches and contracts, how it disciplines and confines, how it moves and withholds. We’re taught that Justice must be efficient. We’re disciplined by urgency, deadlines, appointments, court dates, filings, what rush when obedience is required, when compliance is demanded, when extraction is at stake, and yet we’re also told to wait, to be patient, to accept delay, worse low when liberation is at stake. Our time is managed, meter regulated, so time becomes another border, another wound, another name for control. Waiting becomes a condition of living, a posture the body learns in this way, undocumented life is governed by a contradiction constant urgency paired with endless postponement. We are rushed and stalled at once. So undocumentedness has taught me that liberation requires us to be untimely. Untimeliness is a refusal to follow the rhythm of a well rehearsed system that relies on compliance. To become untimely is to break the temporal grammar of hierarchical and supremacist structures and ideologies. Untimeliness means to slow down when we’re commanded to rush, to rest, when we’re told to perform, to love, when we’re trying to harden, to care for with and for each other when we are pushed to survive alone. On timelessness is how futures are born in pauses, in deep breaths, in moments of reciprocity, where we acknowledge our freedoms are intertwined. Untimeliness is to become the unexpected ripple that shifts our timelines, so let us practice the unexpected, unexpected solidarity, unexpected tenderness, unexpected rest, unexpected joy, unexpected love. Let us go of our own doing. Let us commit to be the healing. Let us become untimely together because we exist. We are here, and all of us, all of us belong. Take a deep breath with me, breathe in and breathe out. So let’s respond to story. Ian, I’m standing on the stage and a microphone is trembling slightly in my hand. My chest feels tight, much like it feels tight right now, and my breath is shallow, and I’m nervous. And beneath that nervousness, I sense something else moving, a longing to release, to loosen the grip of all I have been caring, to let go of what has lived in my body for 24 years. I begin to speak. I begin to give language to the weight, to the memory, to the love, to the grief, to the becoming of an unbecoming of living an undocumented life. This piece is called undocumented time. Thank you for listening. Thank you for holding this time with me. Love and care, community. Love and care, so in the spirit of solidarity, in the spirit of leaning in with all of you, I’ll read to you what emerged for me yesterday, as I did emotionally, as I meditated on this undoing practice that I’ve been committing myself to, and what I ended up meditating on was in response to, well, the prompt that I chose I should, I should say, was dreaming, and I began to read the prompt to myself, and I said, tell us a story about a time. Tell us a story about a time. And I so wanted to get to the end of that prompt, but I got stuck there. I got. Talk on the word time. So here’s my reflection on what is undocumented time. So what is undocumented time? Time hoping, time hiding, time in school, time holding, time being held. Time doing your best, time laboring to not stand out, time spent working and getting paid under the table, time avoiding sickness, time figuring out how to access health care, times being told something is not for you, time keeping your hopes up that the DREAM Act will pass. This time, time spent researching how to open a bank account without a social security number that’s you are told, as a dreamer, you came here through no fault of your own. Times being told your mom is a criminal, times feeling depressed, time feeling lost. Time spent searching apartments, explaining to landlord why you don’t have a credit history and paying extra fees as part of your lease. Time Being called illegal, time forgiving. Time committed to our collective liberation, time hearing others saying that you don’t pay taxes as your paycheck goes to pay taxes. Time counting times you don’t meet the requirements for funding, times you are told we use verified. Times you are profiled and they are right about you, but still obsess you that your brownness and accent have been weaponized against you. Times you are questioned and threaten us, and other times you are asked, Where are you from? Times you are asked, no, but really, where are you from? Times you have to lie. Times you are asked, When is the last time you were in Mexico? Do you visit. Oftentimes you have to defer a question about traveling and work. Times you have to decline invitations to visit Canada or at Ian friends wedding taking place abroad. Time celebrating birthdays, time writing letters, time running out. Time when your grandmother passes away and you can see her one last time, times you couldn’t, times you counted the days until the implementation of the REAL ID Act. Time protesting, time driving, speeches, time organizing, time teaching, time envisioning, time theorizing, time Illuminati, time reframing my undocumentedness, time avoiding being disappeared. Time articulating pain. Time in therapy, time counting time months, years, decades away from Tenochtitlan, away from my homeland, away from my dad, away from my sisters. Time wondering what and where it’s home. Time protecting our collective humanity. Time dancing cumbia, moving to the beat of ancestral redones. Time with friends, time flourishing, time thriving, time witnessing, time experiencing the weaponization of your resilience. Times you are celebrated, times you celebrate the postponing of the REAL ID. Act time to adjust your life to the REAL ID. Act time you are now spending planning elaborate trips across the country to avoid air travel to see your mom and continue doing the work you love. Time you have to Spain away from your partner during the strips. Time you have to be in a train. Time you have to be in a car. Time dreaming, time nightmare in time to write, time to think, time to remember, time to fear, time to heal, time to pray, time to slow down, time to feel, time to breathe, time to imagine, time to undo, time, time to rebel, time to be critically hopeful. Time to object to the temporal grammar meant to constrain us. Time to sing, even if I’m off tune, I am a terrible singer, by the way. Time for poetry, time to let go, time for the new to emerge, time to scream, time to proclaim, I’m not undocumented. I’ve never been undocumented, Ian says, I am whole time to be the unexpected ripple that disrupts the ill legal systems that harm us. Time to be loving and caring and joyful and boundless and visionary and restful and unapologetically. So if you ask me what it means to be an undocumented time, it means to be untimely. Thank you.

Krystal Lee  18:38

Thank you. Luis, thank you for sharing. For me being in the room as you shared your narrative undocumented time, it was a truly immersive experience. I’m an immigrant myself, but it really helped me to feel the weight of the reality that so many people carry in silence, it really highlighted, to me, the extreme diversity in the immigrant experience. And so thank you again for sharing. Listeners, if you enjoyed today’s episode. If you learned something, if it touched you in any way and you’d like to help support the podcast, please be sure to share it with a friend and post about it on social media. If you feel like going above and beyond, leave us a review on Apple podcasts or give us five stars on Spotify. This helps us reach other listeners who are working towards health equity. You can also watch the video version of Luis’s story on our YouTube channel. The link is in the show notes. Thanks again for being with us on this journey where every step we take brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care. Ian

Mandy LeBreche  20:05

promising practices for health equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

StoryJAM Part 2 (recorded live from the 2025 IRL MN Leadership Meeting)

Season 3, Episode 6 | March 12, 2026

Speakers: J. Robin Moon, Krystal Lee, Speaker 4, Luis Ortega, Speaker 7, Mandy LeBreche, Speaker 5, Speaker 2, Speaker 6, Speaker 3, Speaker 1, Speaker 8

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the promising practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Welcome back to promising practices for health equity. I’m your host, Crystal Lee,

J. Robin Moon 00:25

and I’m Jay Robin moon. If you listened to our last episode, you met us at the bend in the river where our IRL community paused to reflect and imagine the future through the metaphor of a river. Today, we present to you the part two of our story jam series where the river bends, where participants were offered up to five minutes to share their visions in any form, a story, a poem, a movement, a reflection, all of which you will see rooted In future possibilities. The prompts remained the same, and stories were offered to the whole community to be witnessed, braided together and felt as one collective current.

Krystal Lee  01:11

And this is where something magical happened. As one of our team members reflected, we were trying to create something using the pieces to create something bigger, a larger whole. Individual stories about social justice, food sovereignty, Healing Justice, community building, were placed in proximity to each other, and suddenly we could see the world. They were building together while the community spoke. Artist Chris Whitman sketched in real time, creating a shared visual map, a collective vision board of the future being dreamed in that room.

J. Robin Moon 01:46

Normally, a 10 Year program produces a culminating Impact Report, a doorstep of a document rarely does it talk about transformative capacity building at the individual and community level that must accompany any true change or the reimagined future as impact these stories. The story jam is our impact report.

Krystal Lee  02:10

What you’ll hear in these stories is exactly that evidence of a profound capacity to envision and narrate a more just world, that ability to reimagine the future is the impact, and it’s an impact that’s accessible, emotional and alive. So listen not just to the stories, but to the world they are building together. This is part two of our story. Jam.

Speaker 1  02:39

Hey, y’all shout out to our folks joining online. I see some coho two folks there. Glad you all are here. My mom had me when she was about 22 years old. She was married, but my biological father wasn’t really available for parenthood, so she decided that I should live with my grandmother, her mom so my mother could get herself together. My grandmother lived in Camden, New Jersey, and those are my first memories of my childhood. Shout out, Camden. We spent a lot of time in church, and grandma made big Sunday dinners of chicken and string beans and cat eye biscuits. And it was wonderful. One day she told me, You’re going to have a new father and your mother, and you know, her fiance are coming here, and they’re going to get married here. So I was super excited. In my mind, we were going to become fast friends. He was going to absolutely love me, and it would be wonderful. So on the day of their arrival, you know, we’re already we’ve got on our Sunday best, and they come in the door, and everybody’s greeting them with hugs and kisses, and it’s beautiful. And I’m standing there in a state of shock. I was so disappointed. I was confused. I looked at him with extreme suspicion. I did not like him, but my grandmother was also a disciplinarian, and I knew not to be disrespectful, so I made small talk, and I smiled and all those things, until later on, somebody asked, Shelly, what do you think about your new dad? And I had so much anxiety inside and so much anger and confusion that I was just waiting for somebody to ask me. And I said, I can’t believe she’s going to marry that white man. My aunt laughed. He’s not white. He is white. And I knew at that age. I was about five, that white people were the enemy because a white man had killed reverend Dr Martin Luther King, Jr, and that was my first crush, and I knew that they couldn’t be trusted. I was not appeased, until my soon to be father told me himself, I am not white girl, Ian. He was Franklin’s complexion. He was just a light skinned black guy, and I believed him, and we did. Develop a remarkable friendship and relationship. And this could be a long story about trust and the other and all of that, but that’s not what this story is about. This story is about my dad, Kenneth Irvin Jordan, who taught me how to make my bed with hospital corners and who introduced me to broccoli and mushrooms, which is the most fascinating food on the planet. We had long conversations. He’s a Sagittarius. He also was not big on the touchy feely and granola stuff, but he had enough patience to endure a precocious five year old little girl who had a whole lot of questions. One day, still in those early years, I was in a conversation with him, and I was just overcome with emotion, and I said, Will you marry me? Will you marry me? He said, No, I’m already married to your mother. And while I can appreciate his candidness, you know, at this age, my therapist, we had to do a lot of work and unpacking that because she’s like, that really was not a good response, right? But what I was really asking was, will you be here? Will you not abandon me? Will you not leave me? Will you teach me things? Will you protect me? Will you love me? Will you tell me that I’m beautiful and I’m worthy and special, and will we play together and talk together? Will you be as honorable as Dr King and as funny as James as Jerry Lewis, and he was not quite as funny as Jerry Lewis, but he turned out to be really wonderful. He taught me how to ride a bike. He wouldn’t let me hang out with the fast girls in the neighborhood, but I snuck and did it anyway. He made me fall in love with learning in the Smithsonian Museum where he worked, we took long walks to the safe way and people’s drugstore, which is now CVS, and he calls me Shelly too. My dad turned 75 years old a few years ago, and I reflected on our life together. He was only 20 years old when he married my mom. He was a traumatized Vietnam vet who decided to step up and become a dad to a little black girl who really, really needed one. And so to all the dads, the granddads, the uncles, the Pops and all of you who Father, thank you.

Speaker 2  07:11

Your work is so important. We love you. We need you. We value you. Thanks. You.

Speaker 3  07:24

I’m going to read from our panoply until my time runs out. Somebody say, Fight on, fight on. There’s pages 12 and 13. It talks about our friend of the court brief. It’s in a US Court of Appeals case right now, research that David Craig and I did in 2019 that’s going up to the Supreme Court one way or the other. Somebody say fight on by all means available, the battle for Medicaid is part of a modern day civil war not being fought with muskets, but with policy clashing with poverty and a war started by design of the greedy 1% of the powerful. We knew that to defend Medicaid, we had to bring our voices and our research into the heart of the legal process. That opportunity came in 2025 when we joined an amicus cure ie brief in the case rose versus Kennedy, currently being heard the United States appeals court in the District of Columbia, an amused brief allows those who are not direct parties to a case to offer insights that may inform the court’s decision. In this moment, silence was not an option. We were called to be friends of the people. Our journey toward that brief began with our fifth faith community consultation, a coordinated effort to uplift the voices of those most impacted by Medicaid changes, neither policy enacted in ignorance or with deliberate disregard for the facts can be deadly. Our contention was that new policy and law surrounding Medicaid in 2025 are not just unjust, but they are presented and enacted in an arbitrary and capricious manner. They lack data support, ignore the community, have intended consequences, and they are not just harmful, but they are, in fact, lethal. In 2019 a health equity study, health equity urban congregations and hip served as a foundational source document for. For this brief, our current Robert Wood Johnson Foundation funded study expands on that work, incorporating insights from residents, professionals and advocates across the cities. In our study in Indiana, the Community Leadership Board guided every phase, from research question design to community education and findings dissemination, because our research is both institutional review board approved and rooted in community valued research, its inclusion in this friend of the court brief represents a double affirmation that our work is both academically sound and morally imperative. Being named amakai is not simply an academic gesture. It is an act of scholar activism. We stand as friend of the court, offering advice from the authentic voice of the people asserting the moral urgency of equitable health policy, our participation is not a legal formality. It is a call for consciousness provided by the respected and Clarion instruction of the community. The phrase right on rose from the front lines of the civil rights and Black Power movements of the 1960s it was more than a slogan. It was a spiritual affirmation, a rhythmic nod of shared struggle and shared resistance spoken by Freedom Fighters, mothers, preachers, teachers, artists and youth on the front lines of protest and possibility, it marks a moment of recognition that dignity had not been stripped, that courage still bloomed and that hope was not lost. It echoed across pulpits and street corners. It blared from radios. It acknowledged humanity and even served as a final blessing shared by friends. Right on was a spoken embrace, a cultural drumbeat affirming worth agency and Divine Presence amid socio political storms, personal vulnerability and collective strife. It was language woven from resistance, pride and transcendent black agapeism and genuine joy. In the midst of it all, it was a short hymn of identity, a collective determination. I’ll keep your attention today. We say fight on. Everybody. Say fight on. Fight on, not in place of right on, but as its descendant, this new charge emerges from the same ancestral well shaped by the terrain of our time we speak it in the face of legislative callousness, Economic abandonment and medical neglect, where the earlier call affirmed our presence. This call ignites our purpose. It declares that despite the apparent greed and evil driven wickedness we witness and endure, Our response must be real and righteous resistance. This modern call from the passion and power of the old Freedom song, from the wisdom of our elders, from the blood memory of ancestors and from the fierce moral urgency of our time, is a cry. It is a cry drawn from the marrow of the movement forged in fire and carried forward in profound faith to those original dreamers who coined right on in the face of dogs and hoses, who dared to believe that black lives mattered before hashtags came and went, we seek to honor you. Your affirmation fuels our resolve. Your language has become our liturgy. Your courage strengthens our stance, bolstering our commitment and courage to faithfully Fight on, right on, all,

Speaker 4  14:49

right, everyone. So some of you may know that cohort five. Where are we? No, no one left. Okay, I’ll compliment all of us. Ian. All right, cohort five. I want to begin by thanking a cohort member, Rafael Perez Figueroa, who reached out to me and said, I want you there. Let’s go and let’s represent our cohort and also share our story. So thank him, and also thank him for always encouraging me to do this right, to be make myself more visible, and to a new friend, John Chase, who also came up to me yesterday, following Luis’s call to say, hug someone or tell them you got this. And because I shared the story that I have in mind that I want to share with you, but I want to begin with what I grew up and where my story is going and where it started. So let’s see if this works. Will this if I put something on, will it capture you? Think I

Speaker 4  15:56

so this is what Luis mentioned yesterday, dancing cumbia. Cumbia is traditional music from South America. My family, my family is from Ecuador, and that’s what I grew up hearing, right? My parents were immigrant factory workers. My father was undocumented for many years, and in the factory he worked on, this is why I have my tissues here too. But I saw the box. But in the factory he worked in, he showed that he only had six years of schooling my mother too, but he was a dedicated worker, and when there was a raid by ice that came and swept him out and deported him, the supervisor that worked in that factory said, you will come back. You hold on, and I will bring you and your family back. And that’s how I’m here, the daughter of immigrant factory workers who dared to dream big, who also resisted, because that music was what I heard almost every week, and I had no idea how my parents said that they worked, four kids, uncle, grandma, living with us, and they still found moments of Joy, sharing in community. My father was an organizer. Um, he founded the first Ecuadorian club. I’m from Patterson, New Jersey, that’s where we grew up. Um, they found moments for joy. They found moments to build community. And so for me, that has, I didn’t realize that that was what founded my connection to public health work, right? It has given me that inspiration to say, I too can do this. They were building a life for themselves and for us beyond what they ever could have imagined. And so the radical thought I have now is I live now in the state of North Carolina and and seeing firsthand and witnessing the devastation that’s happening with ICE raids, is to work with community groups to say we need to actually not I respect that some people are genuinely afraid and genuinely finding space to protect themselves, and I understand that. But I think for those of us who can my radical thought is we need to make ourselves even more visible. We need to highlight the work, the contributions that immigrant people have always and will continue to make in this country. And that is my commitment to do in North Carolina with colleagues and community groups that are doing this. There’s an immigrant Solidarity Network that I’m working with so that we can just lift up all of those voices for the people that can’t and to continue dancing, to continue hoping and to continue resisting. Thank you, everyone.

Speaker 5  18:37

Hello again, everyone. So to refresh anyone that’s online, I’m Joanna Greer McEachin, cohort three, Team WNC, so happy to be here in another way. So my story, I wrote it down because I can talk a lot, but I want to constrain myself so I don’t get the sign too many times. I vividly remember riding with my team members Amina and Jill, on one of our trips far west on research adventures, the windy roads, the surrounding mountains and the towering trees. I shared how I really wanted abipa to have a research arm that would train community members to do our own research that was not extractive, academically and financially, a space that could create local economic opportunities to pay local people instead of outside firms. Seven years later, Amina, our research reimagined lead for a BIPA R has been the driving force for our lunch. Okay, Legacy moment, my daughter’s personality and practice respectively. J essence, quantitative. Jair, qualitative, our researchers on our first officially funded. It two year project with Blue Cross, Blue Shield foundation of North Carolina. The moment Jay essence gave her update on the lit reviews, and it took my breath away as a colleague, not just as a mother, IRL invested in a BIPA, Jay Essen started her Master’s journey at the University of Alabama, but transferred to UNC system and ended up in a class with who Amina and graduated from UNC Gilling school with her MPH ma IRL provided the seed Amina helped to toil and water the soil. There are still storms of organizational funding deficits, but a rainbow arches over my personal flowers that are blooming in the research reimagined garden that give me hope for the legacy of next

Speaker 6  21:02

you. Right, I’m going to try to repeat this. Mike, so So as Michelle mentioned, I’m a father, and shout out to all the fathers in the house. Can you hear me? All right, sorry. I’m so focused on the music. So my children of a 17 year old and a nine year old, and they would be super embarrassed and probably run out the room for what I’m about to do, but they thank you. They know that I do something in the house called vocalese, which is basically putting lyrics to jazz songs right. A lot of times they’re with their names in it. So I have all these songs right, but what they don’t know is that some of the songs are kind of self deprecating, and my prophets around envisioning, and that is envisioning, and Kwame had talked about mask, and ironically, that was what mine is based off of actually have a playlist called mask, and This motivated me to talk about how there have been two influential groups that have helped me take off my mask. But part of what I want to do is really just share my journey as I get through this. All right, claiming I’m mediocre, and this is Bud Powell’s mediocre, claiming I’m mediocre, claiming I’m mediocre, claiming I’m mediocre, but I don’t want to be mediocre. No more. All right, so part of this next miles Davis’s mask, and part of what my experience has been is the cacophony of different sounds, having to put a mask on, having to take a mask off, putting it on, taking it off, taking it off, putting it on, taking it off, that cacophony was so debilitating because I couldn’t be who I wanted to be. But then I learned, as Miles Davis captures it here, whoops, I learned how to have a groove with the mask, how to walk with the mask, how to have soul with the mask, even though I wasn’t really quite being who I knew I would be. And then as Scarface and Ghostface killer taught me, there were also mass superstars, right? People that I knew, that were in the work and in the effort, that also knew how to rock it with mask on, how to swing with flavor, with mask on. But when I’m empowered by Tyler, The Creator is that he taught us how to take our mask off. And I’m going to go a little bit faster, because I want to do a little censoring on some words. Real quick. Me take my mask off as I sat in a black and brown gun violence prevention collective mentoring Workshop led by very young shiny bugs give it up for shiny y’all, I was reminded I could actually take my mask off, and IRL and the Black and Brown gun violence prevention collective both intersected in my life, in 2021 and it was then that I realized that I wasn’t an imposter. I felt that my 20 years of experience in the field, that now it actually did matter, that I mattered. It was in fact, the conditions that the space and my peers helped me understand to take my mask off, got that sensor by not buying into the false narratives by walking a certain path eye to eye to taught me. That there is a community. IRL, you are my community. Give it up for yourselves. And Shawna, you representing the collective here, please. Thank you. You are my community. You helped me take my mask off. It taught me that the system was designed to make me feel this way, and that I hope we all are able to take our mask off. Thank you very much.

Speaker 7  25:30

All right, thank you. I want to thank you all for empowering me to share my story and forgive me, because it was a very last minute decision. Ian, am an author, I’m a coach, I’m a researcher, and above all, I’m a servant leader. I didn’t get there alone. In July, my dad turned 90. He was my love and my light, and still is. While he was in the Marine Corps, he was faced with a circumstance. He was trying to leave to go on weekend liberty, and there was a line of black men who were saying, Help us. Please help us in the mess hall. They lost some money, and so they have said we can’t go on weekend Liberty until it’s found. Dad thought that was pretty unfair. He was a major, had a little bit of power. Turns out, he had a mentor as a commandant, who basically said, not only figure this out, but we need you to figure some some other stuff out. What it ended up being was that he created the first human relations commission for the Marine Corps and investigated sexual and racial discrimination and harassment. The program was later adopted by the entire United States Armed Forces. This was a precursor to EEO, which was a precursor to Dei. As I grew up watching that example, and then taking over the East oak Ian Youth Development Center, I began to create a culture of character based leadership that was both youth led and mentoring focused. You know, swapping baby carriages for backpacks and education for everyone. I was a servant leader again over the years, we had some research opportunities. I gave them to the kids. Our eight to 12 year olds became authors and researchers, but I never had an opportunity to do the work myself until IRL This is a space for everyone to find a place to be the best version of themselves, not for themselves, but on behalf of the world, not just The United States. I got a call one day, and I was being interviewed to receive a presidential service award from President Biden. And I said, you know, this is a wonderful compliment, but I know someone that’s more deserving my dad. They invited me to share the information, and I did. Turns out, they decided to give us both the Presidential Award. Thank you. My point is, is that as a servant leader, and granted, it was part of my DNA, and my mother was no joke, too, but the story is about Dad. I made friends inside IRL, first in Cohort Two, and now amongst many of you all my life continues to change and evolve. Where am I going? I just recently wrote a best seller called unleashed potential, which focuses on the character and mentoring culture that we had in place at the OIDC, one of my own kids worked for President, Biden as a director of community engagement, a 35 year old. And what I want you all to understand is that whatever dream you dream can happen because this little girl who just wanted to work hard to give my app promise kids a chance to live a life they never imagined it can come true. So thank you very much.

Mandy LeBreche  29:38

Oh, I’m so nervous. Okay, I’m doing a song, and I’m not a singer or a dancer. I’m not a singer like Sandra or Kwame or mapuana or all the rest of you that have really nice voices. Any rent fans season’s a love. Up in here. I like that. Okay, well, I adapted the lyrics to seasons of love for IRL, so maybe just like pay attention to the words and not the acoustics of my voice, if that’s a thing. All right. 5,256,000

Speaker 8  30:23

minutes. 5,256,000 moments, so dear. 5,256,000 minutes. Do you get it? How do you measure 10 years of IRL in research, in check, Ins and emails and more, emails, collaboration agreements, thanks, Kathleen in walk up songs and swag. 5,256,000 minutes. How do you measure 10 years of IRL, my request in webinars, in meetings and leadership changes and more leadership changes in stipends, no cost, extensions and papers in our beds. 5,256,000 minutes. How do you measure 10 years of IRL? How about health equity? That’s kind of good. How about restorative justice? How about re imagining? Measure and love. A Decade of building our Be Love and community, a decade of building our beloved community. 5,000,250 5,256,000 minutes. 5,256,000 stories to share. Thanks, Louise, 5,256,000 racist systems to dismantle. How do you measure the life of a fellow in IRL in truth that we’ve learned or in moments we’ve cried, in the bridges we built or the dreams we’ve revived. It’s time now to sing out. Though the program has to end, let’s celebrate remember a decade of 300 new friends. Remember the

32:48

love you can all join in. Remember the love. Remember the love. Measure and love. Seasons of love. Love you. IRL, oh. Cut

33:22

off. Oh, thank you.

Luis Ortega  33:37

One more round of applause for everyone that joined us on stage,

Luis Ortega  33:48

and my wholehearted gratitude, because I know there are many in this room who are not here. There are also many in this room who I know played a role in giving you that encouragement that brought you to this stage. Thank you to everyone in the space, for holding, for witnessing. It is not lost on me that my poetic provocation to open up this story, Ian meditated on the question of undocumented time, and we close with a song about what it means to measure time.

Luis Ortega  34:29

Poetry is everywhere. So to close, I want to invoke the concept of Ian lakesh. Imagine concept it means you are my other me. And when I say Ian lakesh, I will ask you to say you are my other me. So thank you to everyone that came up here to tell us about their journey in lakesh. Thank you to. Everyone that came up here to share with us their stories about what it means to bloom in LA cache. Thank you to everyone that came up here to sing and to share with us what it means to be at that place where the river bends in LA cache. Thank you to everyone that came up here to dance, to share their music, to remind us that in these times, that is perhaps one of the most radical things that we can do, to join and move together in rhythm in lakesh, thank you to Cohort One, to cohort 23456, and seven, seven generations in lakesh, thank you for making yourself visible and naming how difficult it is at times to feel invisible. Thank you for showing up in lakesh, thank you for naming your identities, your indigeneity, your queerness, your reality, your blackness, your beauty. Thank you for speaking those words that we are being told they are banned. No, they are not. We exist in lakesh, thank you for giving boys to sisters, to siblings, to our children, to our ancestors, to our fathers, to our mothers in lakesh, thank you for your stories about loss and grief in lakesh, thank you for your amicus brief in lakesh, thank you for the reminder that we are here to fight On in lakesh, thank you for last minute decisions to come up on stage to share your story, your voice. Thank you for noticing that even though that story jam was already filled, you found a crack and said, No, my name will go in there. Ian lakesh, and thank you to all the beautiful people that make this possible. Thank you to everyone that made this gathering possible. Thank you to the facilitators. Thank you to my dear friend, Cody, that I will now be inviting to come up on stage. One of the first things that happened to me at this gathering, I was having a moment to connect with Robin, and Cody just came up to me and we hugged, and I’ve been feeling that hug the whole time. So thank you for holding me. Thank you for holding each other in LA cash.

Krystal Lee  37:34

Thank you for listening and imagining with us. If this episode resonated with you, I have two things to ask of you first share this episode on social media with friends, family or anyone who you think will enjoy the podcast. If you feel like going above and beyond, leave us a review on Apple podcasts or give us five stars on Spotify. This helps us reach other listeners who are working towards health equity. Learn more about the fellows and the projects behind these stories by visiting our website, iar leaders.org, we also encourage you to watch the full story jam video series on our YouTube channel. The link will be in the show notes, a special thank you to Chris Whitman for bringing our collective vision to life. Watching Chris work in real time was a remarkable experience. She listened so intently, capturing the essence of each story and synthesizing the diverse narratives into a single cohesive visual, she made the intangible tangible, and in doing so, created an anchor point for our continued work, a reminder of what is possible to see the visual representation of our stories created by Chris Whitman of Whitman studios. Check out our show notes. Thanks again for being with us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world, until next time take care,

Mandy LeBreche  39:01

promising practices for health equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation.

StoryJAM Part 1 (recorded live from the 2025 IRL MN Leadership Meeting)

Season 3, Episode 5 | March 12, 2026

Speakers: J. Robin Moon, Speaker 5, Speaker 6, Kwame Owusu Daaku, Bruce Reilly, Speaker 4, Krystal Lee, Speaker 1, Speaker 3, Speaker 7, Speaker 2, Mandy LeBreche

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the promising practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Welcome back to promising practices for health equity, a podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, or IRL, a national program funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. I’m your host, Crystal Lee,

J. Robin Moon 00:34

and I’m your co host, Jay Robin moon, this is season three, Episode Five, where the river bends.

Krystal Lee  00:41

In this season, we have been exploring our visions of the future, and today, we invite you into a very special gathering, our final annual IRL Minnesota leadership meeting, where our IRL community across the seven cohorts came together to reflect on our journeys and imagine the future through the metaphor of

J. Robin Moon 01:02

our river. Rivers begin at headwaters, gather strength at confluences and wind through gentle meanders and sometimes rush forward in sudden rapids. Sometimes the river bends. We know it continues, but we can’t see what lies ahead in our final IRL convening, we pause together at that end to reflect on our journeys and imagine what comes next.

Krystal Lee  01:30

Each person created their own river story responding to one of three prompts about the future. First, a dreaming prompt, tell us about a time you glimpsed a future that felt just joyful or free. Second, a designing prompt, share a moment when you sensed something meaningful, beginning to take shape through your work. And third, an envisioning prompt recall a memory that reminds you of the future you’re working towards.

J. Robin Moon 02:01

What you’ll hear in this episode and the next are those reverse stories at our story jam. They are extremely personal, reflective and profoundly connected. They are not just about where we’ve been. It is also about where the current is carrying us into the future. I want to make a note here the story jam that we hosted in 2025 the second one after the first one in 2024 is one of our signature dissemination products of this grant program. Unlike every other grant Impact Report, I will air quote that on what the grant money was able to accomplish during that grant period that sit weightily on a bookshelf collecting dust, or they can serve as a nice doorstops. This is an impact report in 3d if you will, on not only what has been accomplished in the past, but what it means to the recipients and the communities now and in the future? After all, shouldn’t any sizable grant program aim for that lasting change into the future?

Krystal Lee  03:14

This is part one of our two part story jam series, which features stories told by our IRL fellows and alumni, which we weave into a collective vision of the future beyond the meaningful significance we’ve mentioned here. It’s just really fun and funny, and you might even shed a tear. Today we will meet where the river bends. Let’s take a listen.

Speaker 1  03:39

And now it’s time for story, jam. All right, thank you, and welcome to story jam.

Speaker 2  03:49

So my name is Antonio Tovar, cohort three from Florida, and I think that something that have resonated through all these these couple days, is the journey that we embrace. It has been a long time like I think that something that also was shared many times is how we grow together as teams. There was a lot of, well, not in all the teams, but in some teams, there was a lot of tension. There was some even broke out on some teams, and also was mentioned, like, I’m a community partner, so we have to be dealing with two academics. So there was always that negotiation in terms of, we were the middle, say, hey, like, this kind of science is good, this other kind of science is also good. We can mix them. It’s okay. So that was something that probably even the program was learning in terms of how they have to deal with these dynamics that we has come. Unity members were in the minority twice, and like also, some of the academics have to learn about how be equal in this relationship, not just equal in terms of the the knowledge, but also in terms of accessing data, in terms of finances, in terms of funds, that was always that, that fight with the academics, that, Oh, the institution, because many times the institutions like we hold the funding for the communities that we have to like, well, we don’t, we don’t have a lot of fun on our organization, so we really need the support to keep moving. So all said that because there is a lot of communalities. There is also the journey. And that’s what I did my car, because there’s there’s a journey we doing field work. You spend a lot of time in the car or in other anyways, how you need to move to one place to another? My story is about one time that the team was driving between one community to another community in Florida, we have a rental car. It was the middle of the night, and one of the pieces of the car start to fall off, so start to make a lot of noise in the in the path. So let’s say what we are going to do, like we need to. We stop. We call the agency. The Agency say, Oh, well, you, either you, we can change you the car. It’s okay, but you need to bring the car here, or you can wait tomorrow morning that we send someone to trade the car. So it was like, what we are going to do? Like, we don’t have any ways to fix this. So I don’t chew gum, but my other co workers were chewing gum. So I say, why don’t we try the gum like we don’t have glue, we don’t have tape, we don’t have anything, but we have gum. I even start chewing gum, and that’s why I put my gum in this other side, because, like, we all put our little pieces of gum in the in the size of the car we we there’s just 3040 miles more to go. So we put the we put the gum in the car, and we dry the rest of the 3040 miles to get to a town where we have our tail so we can wait for the next car the next day. So we improvise and we we we have a commitment, we have a goal. So that’s what many times I inspired to say, we have seen all the kind of challenges we are going to face, all the challenges. So we need to be creative work as a team and keep moving forward. And that’s my story.

Bruce Reilly  08:13

Hello. Bruce Riley with Team New Orleans cohort four, give it up. So I read the prompt dreaming. Tell us a story about a time you glimpsed a future that felt just joyful or free, and something came to mind immediately. And I was like, Nah, there’s got to be more. I racked my brain. I tried to think of more moments, more times that I thought of I saw the future being just joyful or free, but I couldn’t come up with anything else. So I had to settle on on that prompt for my story. And so it was, I’m sitting there in my room, and they called for volunteers, and my cellmate was like, I’m not getting up. I’m not volunteering for these people. I’m not giving them free labor or whatever. It’s nighttime. It’s snowing out. Hell’s No but I thought, wow, I haven’t been outside at night in 11 years. This sounds like an interesting opportunity to try something different, and I didn’t have a door on my cell at the time, but there’s a door at the end of the hall that was locked. So I’d made it all the way down to medium security to minimum security, from medium from Max. So I had various experiences, but I always knew what was going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. I was working on people’s cases. I was doing portrait art, and I’d listen to my music at night. I’d even dance in my cell. I had no idea what lie in the future, and so I took every day to try to prepare for anything little Bruce Lee style, like be able to fight on all sides. I read 1000 books or more, you know, I tried to study everything I could possibly study, because I had no idea. What the future held for me, because I never really had a future before I went to prison. I didn’t have a home to go back to. There was nothing waiting for me outside. Everything was just going to be me trying to figure it out. And I got out there into the snow with my shovel. And I was pretty fit back then, so I was ready to shovel up a storm, give them my free labor, because it was an exchange. I was getting something back, and this wave of emotion was just pulsing through me, and I was like, Holy shit, I’m getting out. I’m gonna get out of this place. And I knew people that were never gonna get out. Some of my best friends were ticketed to die in there. Some are still in there, and I had no idea that I was going to be able to fight to go through college and drop out, but then go to law school and get a law degree. I had no idea that I was ever going to have a kid. I had no idea that anybody might love me enough to hang out with me longer than a conversation. And that is the moment, the transformative moment for all of us to have a moment, you know, to feel the emotion that makes us think that anything is possible, you know, and to not limit ourselves to a set future. You know, and I know people that have had a set timeline for themselves, you know, from birth or from high school or from college or after college, like I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that, and that’s going to happen. And you know, whether it be marriage or kids or professions. And I just always had this sense of wonder, this sense of be ready make the next right choice, and then after that, make the next right choice, make the next right choice, and in that moment, the right choice was to give my free labor to an institution that I hate dearly with every ounce of my soul so that I could have something in exchange I could have a little piece of freedom. Thank you very much.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  12:00

Cohort seven. Yeah. So this never goes how I plan in my head. Where do I begin? So a year ago, when we, you know, had the privilege of having Lewis for the first time and learning about telling stories. I remember Crystal’s sort of one of her opening speeches. She wrote a love letter to IRL, and for the first time, she kept on using the word IRL. And I was like, oh, isn’t that like Gen Z for in real life, you know? And I’m like, why haven’t we ever made that a thing in IRL? And I was just thinking about it a lot more. And I had the privilege to sit by Taylor on the bus back after graduation, and I was sharing my thoughts with her about it that like, yeah, iRL is in real life, and this is real life, like we think that we’re coming in and taking off our masks and putting down our backpacks, but no, this is the vision of what life should be like this space, what we feel here, what we experience here, this is real life, and we’re not like out there, the matrix. And so we’re now coming in to like, experience what life should be like, you know, and you like the prompt is like, who was with you when this happened? You were all with me when this happened, even people from courts before who paved the way. And I just like, it’s amazing, and it’s what the initial thing I wanted to share was how over the pandemic, I learned from a colleague at another institution, like everyone was teaching over zoom so he would play beats, you know, just like as the students were joining the calls, I was like, Oh, that’s really cool. And I started doing the same thing, but then i i also like to sing. I think I just like music, I like to dance, I like to sing, you know. And so I was like, oh, instead of just the beats, I should do a song for them, you know. And the first time I did it, like, my camera was off, like, everything, but the students were wild and crazy. And I was like, This is what learning should be. Like, you know, where, like, we’re really, really excited and like, we can bring all of ourselves to bed. So that’s becoming like a regular thing, where, at the beginning of a course and at the end of a course, I will open up with the song, end of the song. So it was like, I can’t tell you about this experience and not demonstrate it for you, so I’m gonna hopefully this works out, and hopefully there’s no like, crazy feedback. Echo, so yeah, and I usually will take some popular Disney or show tune and then, like, change up some of the words a bit, so hopefully this works out.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  14:56

What I love most about rivers is you can’t step in the same river to. Eyes, the water is always changing, always flowing. And people, I guess, can live like that, but we all must pay a price to be safe. We lose our chance of ever knowing what’s around the river band, waiting just around the river band, please look once more, just around the Riverbend beyond the shore. Our dreams are reality. What do we hope for when we thought our fears won’t end. It’s just around the Riverbend for us, waiting for us. Can you feel it there beyond these trees or right behind these waterfalls? Can you ignore the sound of my bad singing? Don’t be a leader who only manages the realities of this time and never dreams that something might be coming just around the Riverbend, coming just around the Riverbend. Please look once more just around the Riverbend beyond the shore. Our dreams are reality. What do we hope for when we thought our fears won’t end. It’s just around the Riverbend. Just around the riverband. Will you stay your well run course steady as the beating drum. Will you keep things ho hum? Is all my singing to no end? Ian, our dreams will not wait for us forever, just around the river.

Speaker 3  17:01

Bear. Hi,

Speaker 4  17:12

I sure did pick the wrong act to follow. So I am Jess Owens, young, a part of cohort 17 DC, and this is a story of both designing and envisioning, dear search committee members. I am excited to submit my application for an Associate Professor position in the School of Community Health and policy at Morgan State University. My name is Jessica Owens Young and I’m currently a tenure track Assistant Professor in the Department of Health Studies at American University. Since joining the AU faculty in 2016 I have taught undergraduate and graduate students completed internally and externally and externally funded research projects and engaged in diverse service activities, from the department to the field. I am a creative scholar, teacher with extensive experience in research, teaching and mentoring on and off campus, a strategic thinker and a collaborative colleague who can support the mission and goals of s chip and MSU. Overall, my backgrounds and philanthropy and public health provide a unique lens to my teaching and scholarship, which I am excited to bring to MSU. You might be thinking that this is the letter that landed me my new role at Morgan State University. This letter was written a year and a half before I hit submit on the application. This letter, which is still in my Google Drive, was a seed that bloomed into where I am now. I sense the change coming in late 2022 and early 2023 I had already submitted my tenure packet at American and was waiting for it to make its way through the process. While I trusted that administrative process, I was also trusting my own emergence as a scholar, educator and as a person. I could see a glimpse of who I was becoming, and my angst turned into amazement. I didn’t know at that time that I was writing my own possibilities. That letter was the beginning of seeing myself in a different space, in a different role, serving a different community. I had forgotten about that letter until I opened a new document in my Google Drive. It was listed as a suggested file. I opened it and heard my past self guiding me into my future. This moment taught me the meaning of writing your future. I didn’t know it at that time, but. It taught me that my words are powerful. Trust the seeds you planted, let the roots ground you in fertile soil, like this letter, that actually wasn’t what I submitted. I wrote a completely other letter, but this letter helped me bloom through the cracks of possibilities. So I wish the same for you. Let your seeds bloom and lift you to the future that you create. Thank you. Good

Speaker 5  20:35

morning, everyone. I chose prompt I’m responding to prompt three I’m telling a story about a future that I am working towards. I went to four high schools in the three countries. I was perpetually new and bad at it, often awkward, seriously unpopular. I don’t know why I was very smart, good looking and incredibly humble.

21:05

Why didn’t people like me? And so I never really belonged. I never felt like I belonged.

21:13

But the fourth High School started something new, and it all started with a smile and a wave

Speaker 5  21:21

the very first time I rode the bus to go to Belize Christian Academy in belmopan, I was nervous before getting on the bus. We’ve all had that idea of getting on the bus and people shifting over to block the seats and wondering, where am I going to sit? Who’s going to accept me? Well, those fairs were silly and short lived, because as soon as I stepped onto the bus down at the back, Patrick chin, big wave, goofy smile. Come sit here. Never seen him before a day in my life. And just like that, all of my suspicions about people not liking me, and people you know talking about me, all the whispers were about me, and all the laughter was at my expense. All of that melted away, and I grew into a community that I loved. I did everything that you would do with your friends in high school. We watched movies together, we did excursions to the river, to the sea, we went camping. We played basketball, volleyball, tennis, but by far my favorite activity was circling. Belmopan is the administrative capital of Belize. And I specify administrative capital because it was not the original capital. The original capital was Belize City, and it’s the financial capital, but it gets hit by hurricanes too often. And so in Bel Ian, they were able to build capital intentionally, and they built something beautiful. Most of the residences are connected by a ring road. And after school, when we were done with ignoring our homework, someone would start up and walk to the nearest friend’s house, and they’d say, Hey, you want a circle? Yeah, of course, that friend would come out, and you’d walk to the next friend’s house, so on and so forth, until you picked up a host of friends, and then you dropped off the first person, and then they dropped off the second person, I’m sorry, and so on and so forth. I loved it. I loved it so much after Belize, I missed circling about 10 years ago, Crystal and I adopted Sydney, a Lassa, Apso, Shih Tzu Queen mix, she demands long walks at first, the long walks were difficult for me. I wasn’t in the best of shape. My back would hurt all that kind of stuff. But, you know, we circled because Sydney, type a crystal has a Notes app on her phone that helped turn our nods and waves into conversations, because she had descriptors of the doggos and the doggo parents, and that’s how we became friends with people in our neighborhood. It’s not quite the same as I was in as when I was in high school, but now our friends stop by our front yard, and it feels like my circle is completing and now, as you know, part of a family on the on the block in our neighborhood that is seen as popular in the neighborhood, everybody knows is every everyone has said, some has something nice to say about us. Now it’s my turn to give the big wave and the goofy smile when I see someone new, or I see a new dog that I like and welcome someone new into my circle. Thank you.

Speaker 6  24:52

Hello, David, Craig, Team Indiana, cohort seven. Fight the power, baby. It’s. This is a response to either prop one or three, I’m not sure. Last Saturday, I was back in the sanctuary of First Baptist Church North Indianapolis, where my friend and colleague, Dr Ivan Douglas Hicks, presides, surrounded by light and wood and purple, I was reminded of the first time I was there. I was there to introduce our community based participatory research project on Indiana Medicaid. I was there to feel my way into the community, become a known presence, and introduce our project. I had many feelings, my usual anxiety at being in new spaces, my recognition that I am a white man from the university asking people to participate in research, but I had purpose in being there, and I leaned into the details of our study, probably ad nauseum. Then came the altar call. I had more feelings this time as a lapsed liberal Protestant, happily married into a Jewish family, what would be asked of me? Little did I know what would be asked. We were invited to stand in circles and hold hands with each other and look each other in the eye and say, I love you. I want you to live. I want you to be well. As I heard these words and shared them, I felt welcomed, loved, accepted. I felt entrusted with a history of people struggling to survive, I felt entrusted with the precarity of daily life under white supremacy, and above all, I felt entrusted with joy and care in this community. I believe that everyone in this room in our IRL community wants the same. We yearn to eliminate structural racism so that people can live and be well, and we can only turn these abstract goals into life with love and through love. I have learned so much from all of you here at IRL, especially about relationship and connection, I’ve learned to answer the question, what does it mean to become a known presence? I thought at the time, showing up and being seen and keep coming back was enough to show my commitment, but Kimberly Nicole Smith taught us at our first dc meeting, it’s important to say who you be. I cannot simply arrive to listen and learn. I need to show up and speak my story, own my passion, and share the depth and the risk of my commitment, I have learned to continue to lead with feelings. I’m still anxious, but I always try to be open to the good that will come, and I try to hear the words that Dr Hicks once shared with me, lean into the mystery. I invite us all, as we move forward, to lean into the mystery.

Speaker 1  28:32

Hi everyone. I’m Victor Rubin. It’s been a privilege to be part of the National Advisory Committee for IRL for all 10 years. And so while I haven’t had the depth of experience that you who are fellows, have had, I have seen and walked with that evolution the whole way. So I want to tell you a story about something that occurred to me yesterday when the prompt went out, the time is September 1998 the scene is a riverboat in the Mississippi River. It’s a casino riverboat parked next to East St Louis, Illinois. And the occasion is the fourth annual meeting of the grantees of the US Department of Housing and Urban Development’s Community Outreach Partnership Center Program. The first time the federal government funded this kind of work or something like it, university community engagement. I was one of the original grantees in 1994 so our work was just wrapping up. I knew, but it wasn’t general knowledge that I was about to become the next national director of the program at HUD in Washington in a few months. My co chair for the meeting was a. A brilliant, wild and crazy planning professor from the University of Illinois at Champaign who had co founded the East St Louis action research project and was doing all kinds of good trouble with grassroots community groups in East St Louis fighting corruption and and inequity in all kinds of issues of housing and transportation and education. So the first night of the meeting, all the grantees and all the feds are assembled on the boat, and we started off by getting up there. And I have no idea what he’s going to say. And what he says is he’s Lenin. I’m Trotsky. Let’s get this revolution started. And two things occur to me right away. One, I didn’t really want to be a federal bureaucrat anyway. And the second is, is the revolution really going to begin in a casino? The headline by the way, in the local paper the next day, paper that was very hostile to progressive groups in East St Louis said federal grantees hold junket on gambling boat. The meeting went off without further incident. We were there because of the work I was doing in Oakland, California with the University of California, Berkeley. And it was an early example. It had started back in 86 of how to do useful work. But that was it. The motto might have been, get shit done. Work with high capacity. Community based organizations. Be transactional. Find a need and fill it. Keep your mouth shut when you whenever you can, you’re there to make the university’s reputation rehabilitated by practice, not by what you talk about, not by what degrees are after your name, not by what faculty member you bring to bear. But can you do something useful? And we did. I learned how to use graduate students effectively. I used learned how to manipulate faculty members so they could even be useful. I learned how to raise money from foundations with one set of goals and Feds with another set of goals. I learned how to negotiate between the local power structure and the community based organizations, but it was all transactional. It was all about me and the faculty member who was the director of it all, who was a major player in the city, and a number of other of us getting stuff done but not paying attention. And Regina knows this history, and it’s so good to reconnect with you. It wasn’t about the things that IRL has come to prize, and that’s why it came to mind yesterday. It wasn’t about the humanity of the endeavor. It wasn’t about the feelings and understanding and growth and evolutionary path of the people who are involved. It wasn’t about the equity in the relationship between the community partners and the university partners. It wasn’t about rethinking the very business of research from the ground up so that you could create something more consistent with the values that were behind the work. It was just about getting shit done. And in the 20 years or so since then, I’ve had any number of opportunities to both participate and evaluate and fund and write about this world that we’re all in and that you’re in for life, whether you realize it or not, of the relationship between universities and communities, and there has been nothing like IRL, anywhere at any time that I’ve ever seen and the values that this program and you all place on the relationship side of things, on the way in which we think feel and work, is going to be a legacy that far exceeds any of the technical work that we all do. So that’s what came to mind. And as the NAC held its final meeting yesterday and we talked about how the message is going to go forward, that’s part of the message. I know I’m moving forward. Thank you.

Speaker 7  34:42

Applause. Hello, everyone. Robert Salcedo, Cohort Two, Team San Antonio. Shout out to all the queers. I did not feel this love in Cohort Two, so I’m just like, whoo. Yes. Yeah, so this kind of goes in line with the first prompt, but it’s a letter of gratitude to IRL, to my beloved IRL family. I came into this program hoping to gain knowledge tools and maybe a line or two to add to my resume. What I walked away with was so much more, and yes, that includes a few gray hairs. I gained relationships that will last a lifetime. Sorry. I also learned the quiet art of knowing exactly who to avoid in the buffet line. Y’all do it, don’t I leaned into issues of inequity, not just as an abstract problem, but as a real opportunity to seek solutions, and being part of the EDI task force for the last eight years has added to my purpose in this continue to work as a queer, brown person. I didn’t always feel a sense of belonging in every space that we were in, but it was a strong black women like Miss Bobby zinzi, Michelle Regina, Dawn and Bania, who wrapped their arms in love around me, they were the ones who created space for me just to be me, from late night bonfires with drinks in hand to convenings across the country to thoughtful gifts and well wishes when I got married, they were there. They showed up when my heart was broken, with a huge spray of flowers at my brother’s funeral. They showed up when my health was in question, with calls from zinzi When I was diagnosed with cancer, with Miss Bobby praying over me on the phone sorry, and with random texts filled with scripture, prayer and love, and I’m not religious, but they were there. Yes, IRL gave me research models, dissemination strategies and the skills to pin an academic article, but more importantly, it reminded me that it’s okay to open my mind, my heart and my soul to strangers who, in time, became family. Together, we shared a common goal, making the world a better place. And while the work isn’t finished, I carry forward everything I learned here, knowledge, courage, resilience and love, and in every future space I step into to pursue the feeling of just joy and a spirit of being free. So thank you, IRL, for the gray hairs, the tools, the relationships, the memories, and most of all, for changing me in ways no syllabus or curriculum could have ever prepared me for with love. Robert, you Ian,

Krystal Lee  37:49

thank you for listening and imagining with us. If this episode resonated with you, I have two things to ask of you. First, share this episode on social media with friends, family or anyone who you think will enjoy the podcast. If you feel like going above and beyond, leave us a review on Apple podcasts or give us five stars on Spotify. This helps us reach other listeners who are working towards health equity. Learn more about the fellows and the projects behind these stories by visiting our website, ir leaders.org, we also encourage you to watch the full story jam video series on our YouTube channel. The link will be in the show notes A special thank you to Chris Whitman for bringing our collective vision to life. Watching Chris work in real time was a remarkable experience. She listened so intently, capturing the essence of each story and synthesizing the diverse narratives into a single cohesive visual. She made the intangible tangible, and in doing so, created an anchor point for our continued work, a reminder of what is possible to see the visual representation of our stories created by Chris Whitman of Whitman studios, check out our show notes. Thanks again for being with us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world, until next time take care.

Mandy LeBreche  39:16

Promising practices for health equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation. You Ian.

Video Interview Project: Reimagining The Future

Season 3, Episode 4 | February 26, 2026

Speakers: Mandy LaBreche, Krystal Lee, and J. Robin Moon

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the promising practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Welcome back to promising practices for health equity, a podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, or IRL, a national program funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. I’m your host, Crystal Lee. In today’s episode, we are featuring one of our most unique dissemination products, or Video Interview Project, also known as the VIP the VIP project was conceived, planned, executed, and lovingly edited by the phenomenal Mandy labresh. For the last 10 years, Mandy has served as the associate director of operations for IRL. She is the life of the party, the person everyone identifies IRL with if you’re ever wondering what the word effervescent looks like in human form, it’s Mandy labresh. Mandy is not just our operations expert and co host of this podcast. She’s also an artist, and this project is her art. Ian dip was created to give our fellows and alumni a space to share their experiences, their voices and their lessons learned for context. Back in 2019, pre pandemic, Mandy led what was going to be IRL documentary project of interviews of the fellows. The format was very different, more academic, shall we say, and more focused on individual research projects. These interviews were conducted in person, but before Cohort Two was all recorded, covid lockdowns hit and the project was canceled. This is our attempt to revive that effort in a very different format. At the 2024 October leadership meeting in Minneapolis, manly conducted more than 30 interviews with individual fellows and with teams from cohort six and seven, along with invited alumni. Each conversation is a powerful reflection on their IRL journey and a glimpse into the more just and equitable worlds they are working to create. We heard about their journeys through the IRL program, how they approached their research, how they built their partnerships, and how their work is advancing health equity. I remember, while we were planning this, and Mandy was worried that people would not sign up to be interviewed, she said, I’m just going to ask people I know to sign up. This led to, let’s call it, a spirited conversation about selection bias and objectivity. It turns out, however, that Mandy totally underestimated how much people wanted this opportunity to share their story, to be heard and to be seen. We actually ran out of interview spots. It was a beautiful reminder of the relationships, trust and community that Mandy has helped us to build over the last decade. The resulting series weaves these stories together thematically highlighting not just the impact of IRL on research and communities, but on the fellows themselves. It shows how being part of IRL has shaped the way they approach research partnership and action to advance health equity. It is a true demonstration of grace. Lee bonds advice that we must transform ourselves before we transform the world. So today, we offer you the video interview project. You can listen to it right here in this episode, or you can watch the full visual series on our YouTube channel. The link is in our show notes. Without further ado, here is Mandy la brush’s Video Interview Project.

Mandy LeBreche  03:49

Hi friends, Mandy here, in my role as Associate Director of Operations for the IRL program, I’ve had the chance to wear a lot of different hats, but one of my most treasured projects beyond this podcast, of course, has been leading the Video Interview Project, or VIP for short. I’ve never really thought of myself as an artist until my wonderful colleagues and friends, Robin and Crystal lovingly called me one. And to be honest, this project helped me to start to believe them. Back in October 2024 at our annual Minnesota leadership meeting, I set up a little interview space and invited as many fellows from cohort six and seven, along with alumni as possible, to sit down with me. I wanted to capture their reflections on how IRL has shaped their research, their leadership and their collaborations. And then I asked each person a visioning question, describe the world you want to see in the future. What came from that were 32 individual interviews and four team interviews, full of heart, honesty, wisdom and so many feelings. Together, they tell us a powerful story about the IRL experience and the kind of future our community is working towards. I’m so very excited to share this VIP collection reimagining the future my. Hope is that as you listen and watch, you feel the same inspiration, hope and energy that I feel every single time I revisit these conversations, because those are the feelings that keep us going, and they’re so deeply needed right now. So grab your favorite snack and Bevy and maybe even a box of Kleenex and enjoy.

Speaker 1  05:19

I want to live in a world where

05:22

I want to live in a world where I want to live in a

Speaker 2  05:26

world where I want to live in the world where

05:30

I want to live in a world where the

Speaker 1  05:33

opinions, the thoughts, the wisdom, the innovation of youth and older adults are valued.

Speaker 3  05:42

Kids can go outside. They can go into natural spaces, parks, green spaces, and express themselves.

Speaker 4  05:54

People can operate in true freedom.

Speaker 2  05:57

People can feel others from others perspective, Ian a harmony society where people respect each other.

Speaker 5  06:08

There is peace and harmony. There is no racism, there is no classism, there is no sexism.

Speaker 1  06:15

It’s something about the power of young and old, and the synergy that comes from that is where I feel real change can happen.

Speaker 3  06:23

They are not thinking about violence, and they specifically aren’t distracted by their smartphones.

Speaker 4  06:32

When I say freedom, I’m thinking broadly and socially as well as economically, and that’s why I think guaranteed income is such an important part to that it gives people autonomy to be able to take an income supplement and use it in the way they see fit, right? That’s part of the freedom, but then also that frees them up to be able to take care of other things in their lives, invest in their children, be civically engaged, increase their education. I often

Speaker 2  06:58

use a water as the example, you see that the water could be used to to destroy the, you know, the foundation, if you if you don’t repair the home. But on the other side, water can also support a boat, when all the waters, collectively can make big things happen,

Speaker 5  07:19

where people don’t have to worry about you know how they’re going to pay for their medicines versus how they’re going to pay for food, but you can pay and get both of those things.

Speaker 4  07:29

Well, if you’re worried about your basic needs like housing and food and transportation, you’re not going to be able to be engaged in other parts of your life, and you’re ultimately not going to be free.

Speaker 3  07:39

We have the potential in our communities to transform the physical space around us and make it our own.

Speaker 5  07:49

There are no boundaries put on people because of the color of their skin,

Speaker 4  07:57

freedom to be themselves, freedom to live a life that’s free, yes, from oppression, but also just from hardships and difficulties that keep them from being, for example, civically engaged and civically minded.

Speaker 2  08:10

So I feel like every one of us is just like a drop of water, but correctly, we can make big things happen.

Speaker 1  08:17

And so if we could just get over some of our stereotypical societal thoughts about those two generations, and let that power meet wonderful things can happen.

08:29

I want to live in a world where

08:32

I want to live in a world where

08:35

I want to live in a world

08:36

where I want to live in a world where

08:39

I want to live in a

Speaker 6  08:40

world where I want to live in a world where

Speaker 7  08:44

it is normal to experience diversity.

Speaker 8  08:47

Systems experiences are designed to meet people exactly where they’re at. Community.

Speaker 9  08:56

Health Clinics are the center of the health care system.

Speaker 10  08:59

People do not. I like to say this, criticize or categorize people by even different identities, and you’re this or that, and what are you and why you’re not and how you’re different and similar to me,

Speaker 11  09:13

people have what they need and that they work hard to make sure that other people who who don’t have can get what they need.

Speaker 6  09:26

Everyone has the resources they need to be their healthiest, most thriving version of themselves.

Speaker 7  09:32

When I think of like my daughter, for example, I imagine a world where she can experience different tastes every day, like different cuisines, she can hear different languages. Every day, she can see different religious and spiritual beliefs every day,

Speaker 9  09:50

if a neighborhood is invested and knows who’s there and supporting one another’s health, maybe we can build the solidarity that we need

Speaker 8  09:59

when I walk. Walk into a hospital, they know how to center my own religious needs or my own even how I like to be touched or talked to.

Speaker 10  10:10

I do believe that everything is a spectrum. This is now the engineer speaking here. We humans have a problem processing continuous streams of data, which is why we need to put it into buckets and then make it what are you? How is that similar or different to me?

Speaker 11  10:29

World is equitable, it is just, it is fair, it is happy, and that it is peaceful and that it is sustainable. The world has already been sustainable, or we’re making it unsustainable or making it unjust.

Speaker 6  10:45

I want to live in a world where laughter is what you hear more often than not.

Speaker 7  10:50

Being able to live in a place and be in a world that embraces diversity is my ultimate vision.

Speaker 11  11:00

Is a world that is reviving some of these old practices that we know used to work,

Speaker 8  11:08

yeah, where everybody’s getting what they need in the place that they need it.

Speaker 9  11:13

Everybody has a basic good of health that needs to be supported. And that would be my vision

Speaker 10  11:19

if we were to live in a world in which we could actually see the inside of a person, rather than all those things that we can see outside. That’s the world that I would like to live in,

Speaker 6  11:29

and I want to hear and live in a world where everyone feels safe regardless to respect, to race, sexual orientation, all of the centers of power

Speaker 11  11:39

being able to mix the the old with the new, almost, kind of like in the vein of Sankofa, right where you can look to in order to look forward you look backward. That’s the kind of spirit that all of us are going to be living in in the future.

Speaker 12  11:57

I want to live in a world where I want to live in a world where I want to live in a world where

12:03

I want to live in a world where

Speaker 7  12:06

I want to live in a world where I want to live in a world where

Speaker 13  12:11

neighborhoods understand diversity is all kinds of people being there.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  12:15

Everyone can be as healthy as they can possibly be, where I’m

12:19

doing something else for a living, I’d like to be out of business.

Speaker 7  12:25

The word housing isn’t synonymous with stress. We all belong, whatever that looks like for us and feels like for us.

Speaker 14  12:33

People respect each other. That just cuts out the bad and keeps the good

Speaker 13  12:39

all kinds of people living there, from older people to children, the different foods that are being shared, the conversations that are being had, music that is being played,

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  12:52

where their navigation of the healthcare delivery system is absent of barriers, they get the care they need when they need it.

Speaker 7  13:01

So something that Shawn said last night really resonated with me about fighting for a world you want to belong in.

Speaker 12  13:06

The ultimate goal is for everyone to have the highest ability, the highest level of health that is possible for

Speaker 13  13:15

individuals that is really inviting people to live in housing, especially that is the way that they want, not the way we’re choosing for them,

Speaker 7  13:26

when they talk about housing, it becomes this stressor. Can I find housing? Can I maintain it? How is it tied to my household wealth? I would? I dream of a world where that’s not how housing gets talked about, and

13:44

we can move so much farther down that

Speaker 13  13:47

evolutionary journey where people respect each other. I think that’s very important. The intergenerational aspect is really important to me. I talk a lot about how going away from intergenerational housing has really done a thing. Our older people are not being taken care of, our younger people are not being taken

Speaker 7  14:10

care of. This idea of abundance based narratives about our communities, and it’s something that I learned from one of our other community organizations called the Jackson center. They live in, they work in our base and historically black neighborhood in Chapel Hill, and are trying to move away, get our community to move away from such a deficit narrative about such a rich and beautiful community. I dream of a world where we have many different housing types and there’s choice. And that choice means that if I want to be able to walk to my job, I could afford to do so,

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  14:46

and they have all of their basic needs met.

Speaker 7  14:49

I want that to become more widespread, that we think of communities and people and humans and society with more of an abundance mindset.

Speaker 13  14:59

There’s always. Dreaming about it and talking to people about what that looks like, because I think people have forgotten that we’ve always had good things. We keep going going away from it. That’s the world that I always create in my mind to continue doing this work.

Speaker 12  15:15

And the more we can do that collectively, the more likely is for people like us to be out of work. So I want

15:24

to live in a world

Speaker 15  15:26

where I vision a world where I

15:30

want to live in a world where

15:32

I want to live in a world where

15:35

I want to live in a world where

Speaker 1  15:38

I want to live in a world where

Speaker 16  15:41

humans are more thoughtful and connected to the physical realities of the universe and the planet.

15:51

Everyone’s dreams become their reality.

Speaker 15  15:56

Our great, great great great grandchildren will understand their connection to our ancestors.

Speaker 17  16:03

I feel safe and I want to live in a world where my family, my friends and my community also feel safe.

Speaker 18  16:13

The majority of our food system is local.

Speaker 1  16:17

Love, justice and freedom are guiding values that are evident in our schools, in our healthcare system, in our communities.

Speaker 16  16:26

Farmers are now starting to apply what indigenous knowledge has known for maybe millions of years around, hey, like, what we eat is not just like a product that comes from the ground, like there’s like it all works together, the sun and the air and the water and the land.

Speaker 19  16:43

I taught third grade, and one of our grounding quotes that we used was by Maya Angelou, where she says, my mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor and some style,

Speaker 15  17:03

the joy that comes with simply talking story that comes with the music and the language.

Speaker 17  17:12

I hope for a world where my kids feel safe and learn to grow and be leaders.

Speaker 19  17:18

They can bring in their own style, their own way of being, that their differences make them powerful, that their way of engaging with the world is necessary

Speaker 15  17:31

There’s been trauma, but at the same time, it shows our strength and the ability to really revitalize practices, language,

Speaker 16  17:41

so questions around the physics around the earth and how those connect to what we would say are like social, economic problems, challenges. That’s where I’m at right

Speaker 4  17:50

now, that decisions are guided by those kind of values and principles, so that every person is able to maximize their potential and to live freely in this world and contribute to all of the gifts that they have inside of them.

Speaker 18  18:05

Focus on making sure that we do everything we can to build truly local food system. And I think if we can do that, a lot of other things will fall into place.

Speaker 19  18:14

And I just imagine a world where that quote is true, where it’s not just what I say in the morning, it’s not just what my students say, but it is the reality for everyone.

Speaker 15  18:25

I want to hear our great, great, great grandchildren still speaking in olalo, Hawaii and our native tongue, and understand that they’re connected with their ancestral lands.

18:37

I want to live in a world where

18:39

I want to live in a world

18:40

where I want to live in a world where I also want to live in a world where I want

18:46

to live in a world where

Speaker 20  18:48

there are no prisons, no youth detention centers, no police, no structures of harm.

Speaker 21  18:55

I am not terrified when my black husband is late arriving home because I don’t know if something happened to him.

Speaker 22  19:03

Systems of oppression have been replaced by systems of love and of care, networks of care where my black and brown brothers and sisters don’t have to worry if their children are going to make it home at night.

Speaker 20  19:18

Community is a solution. The first solution, instead of like systems or structures that have persisted for a long time,

Speaker 23  19:26

my teachers, whom I’m training, know that their students have access to the health care they need, where my trans husband

19:34

doesn’t risk being murdered because somebody

Speaker 20  19:39

finds out who he is, I want to live in a world where we’re not afraid to experiment and think about how we do things differently, like we’re always evolving and changing, and we don’t get stuck in creating new systems and new mental models and ways of maintaining as opposed to way of just growing and evolving.

Speaker 21  19:56

I want to live in a world where women can. Do whatever the hell they want to do with their bodies, regardless of someone who has never lived in a woman’s body, ever, whatever they say,

Speaker 23  20:07

without having to fight an insurance or a government or a state that’s going to do more to fix issues in schools than any curriculum choice they can make.

Speaker 20  20:19

What that looks like for me is, if you can imagine someone opening their door and it’s a nice, bright, sunny day, and they’re just free. They’re at peace. There’s no stress in their body, there’s no worry in their mind. There’s no concern about how am I going to survive or eat, or what do I have to evade? I want

Speaker 22  20:36

to live in a world where I can trust that health care is a basic human right and not a privilege of those who can afford to

Speaker 20  20:44

pay that right now, we’re told are the solution to healing and growth, but really limit that where people can

Speaker 22  20:53

have access to the Structural, interpersonal and intrapersonal resources they need to soar. I world I want to live in.

Speaker 20  21:06

There is a community informed solution. There’s a path for someone. That’s the world I want to live in.

Speaker 21  21:12

I want to live in a world where it doesn’t take a white person for someone to listen to what I’ve been saying the whole time. Yeah, that’s the

21:21

world I want to live in. I want to live in Ebony’s world.

Speaker 24  21:25

I want to live in a world where I want to live in a world where

Kwame Owusu Daaku  21:29

I want to live in a world where

21:31

so what I would like to see.

21:32

I want to live in a world where

Speaker 24  21:35

I get so long and understand each other’s cultures and belief systems and allow themselves to have the conversation.

Speaker 25  21:42

People know that they matter, that their challenges or experiences that come up, that their voices will be heard where

Kwame Owusu Daaku  21:51

all the isms are gone, a world without isms, and a world in which people truly feel like they belong and that they matter

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  21:59

is abundance within your own community.

Speaker 26  22:02

People are free, and freedom means that your home is a refuge.

Speaker 24  22:08

We used to be able to have the conversation, but now, I think a lot of people are struggling with that, having that conversation being open,

Kwame Owusu Daaku  22:15

and that they have the choice and the capacity to live the life that they want,

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  22:21

Hawaiian style is you live ahoy. So you only live within your own community, and everything that you need is in that community. You don’t have to go order something from 10,000 miles away and have it shipped in,

Kwame Owusu Daaku  22:34

you know. So if anyone is living a life that maybe others seem as maybe less than or different, it’s it’s an intentional choice. It’s not because they’re without access to resources or agency.

Speaker 26  22:46

Your home is a place that’s secure that you can’t lose access to if your landlord decides to raise the rent so they can get more profit.

Speaker 24  22:54

And being that, I come from a sanctuary city, and we have all different cultures from around the world, I’ll often get invited to like parties from different cultures, and just the one thing people don’t I think the people who need it don’t go, and that’s unfortunate

Speaker 25  23:10

for speaking up for people who may be deaf or deaf blind, that we’re also creating spaces that will be safer for immigrant populations.

Speaker 26  23:18

Your home is a place that you have the power to shape, to make sure that it’s a place that you and your family can thrive in.

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  23:26

But I would like my granddaughter to see the many things that I was able to see growing up in nature, because a lot of it is no longer present.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  23:35

The work, the lives that we all live are of our own choosing and making.

Speaker 25  23:39

There’s an understanding of the intersections of oppression, and that we choose where people find joy in stepping into spaces to create equity and inclusion,

Speaker 26  23:51

and there’s a freedom in having secure housing, and it connects to so many other things. So the future that I envision is a future where people are living healthy, thriving lives, and it starts with the home as a locus of that freedom and well being.

24:07

I want to live in a world where I

24:10

want to live in a world where

Speaker 27  24:12

I want to live in a world where

Speaker 28  24:15

I want to live in a world and see my great grandchildren live in a world

24:21

where I want to live in a world where where

Speaker 29  24:27

everyone centers around the harms of the past and acknowledge them

Speaker 27  24:33

like it looks like a world where we have our basic social and economic needs met, and it also looks like a world where we recognize our mutual interdependence,

Speaker 28  24:42

where everybody has the opportunity to breathe good air and drink good water and dream beyond their reality,

Speaker 30  24:52

where we are focusing on healing and we are committed to that and knowing that that is no such thing as an Iraq. Of state, but a constant journey.

Speaker 31  25:02

I’d love to live in a world where young people respected their elders and had great partnerships with with their elders and the same and not flippant, right? Where our elders respected young people and really saw the opportunities for partnership and growth together,

Speaker 32  25:18

where people can be themselves, where they can bring their talents, their views, their ideas of how to live and how to be.

Speaker 29  25:28

It demonstrates, to me, it feels like people understand humanity, right?

Speaker 31  25:34

There’s opportunities for fun and enjoyment and love and hope, and

Speaker 27  25:39

we think in terms of the collective. We don’t think in terms of just individual success, individual failure,

Speaker 30  25:47

ridding ourselves of the boundaries and the divides that have been erected in a way to promote this idea that one is different from the other, one is better from the other, where

Speaker 31  26:00

differences of opinion, differences of appearance, differences period, you know, really matter and are upheld

Speaker 29  26:08

when we engage and acknowledge the past and how that matters today. That’s the world that I want to live in,

Speaker 32  26:16

that freedom to really be yourself and bring your vision for the world to fruition. Think that feels like the only way that we’re going to solve some of these big problems.

Speaker 31  26:26

And that world would be for me, a mid 70s, 75 sunny and blue all the time.

Speaker 27  26:33

I really think the cultural emphasis on individualism is one of the most damaging things that we’re facing. But and I think that when you can abolish those things, there would be forms of human flourishing and forms of human connection that we can’t even conceive of, because we’ve never lived in a world where that’s been possible,

Speaker 28  26:53

that everybody has an opportunity to to be who they were placed on this earth to be.

Speaker 30  26:58

And I believe that it’s the world that will exist, maybe not in my time, but it Will.

Krystal Lee  27:20

Thank you for listening and imagining with us. If this episode resonated with you, I have two things to ask of you. First, share this episode on social media with friends, family or anyone who you think will enjoy the podcast. If you feel like going above and beyond, leave us a review on Apple podcasts, or give us five stars on Spotify. This helps us reach other listeners who are working towards health equity. Learn more about the fellows and the projects behind these stories by visiting our website, ir leaders.org We also encourage you to watch the full story jam video series on our YouTube channel. The link will be in the show notes A special thank you to Chris Whitman for bringing our collective vision to life. Watching Chris work in real time was a remarkable experience. She listened so intently, capturing the essence of each story and synthesizing the diverse narratives into a single cohesive visual. She made the intangible tangible, and in doing so, created an anchor point for our continued work, a reminder of what is possible to see the visual representation of our stories created by Chris Whitman of Whitman studios. Check out our show notes. Thanks again for being with us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time take care.

Mandy LeBreche  28:46

Promising Practices for health equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

Turning a Lens on IRL

Season 3, Episode 3 | February 12, 2026

Speakers: Mandy LaBreche, Krystal Lee, and J. Robin Moon

Mandy LaBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcasts brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

 J. Robin Moon 00:21

Welcome to Promising Practices for Health Equity, a podcast by Interdisciplinary Research Leaders or IRL, a national program funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. I am your host. J Robin moon, and this is season three, episode three “Turning a lens on IRL”.

This episode is a very special one. It comes from a unique moment in the life of the IRL program. As we approached our 10th year, we asked ourselves the question, “what does it mean to capture the essence of a decade of work?” The work we celebrate here isn’t just about peer reviewed journal articles, op eds, or even changing policies, neither big P or small p, although those absolutely matter, but it’s really about the human connections, the trust and the relationships that make the research possible.

As we learn through our program that those elements are not “nice to have”, but the necessary foundation. As we’ve heard in every episode since season one of our podcast, the human factor is what makes this fellowship and community engaged research anywhere, truly transformative. So in September 2025 we gathered for our final annual leadership conference, a marked occasion to celebrate, reflect and graduate our last cohort of fellows. And we asked ourselves, what kind of dissemination products can capture this, the celebration itself and the feat of human factor? Not only what we share with the world in formal and external formats, but something that can be returned to our fellows, to our community, something that holds the spirit of what we built together.

We knew the answer was already in the room. For nearly a decade, our photographer, Caroline Yang, hailing from St Paul, Minnesota, has been with us, capturing the laughter, the intense conversations, the serious workshopping hours, the quiet moments of connection, the dance floors. Hundreds and hundreds of frames that tell us a story that words alone cannot. And we didn’t stop at photos. Every Ian gathering featured a crowdsourced [among the fellows] and shared Spotify playlist songs that became the soundtrack of our community. And through our Video Interview Project, or VIP for short, led by our podcast co-host and artist extraordinaire, Mandy LaBreche, we’ve preserved the voices and visions of our fellows in their own words. Think of these as a yearbook in 3d. So we brought these elements together. Caroline’s visual narrative, our community soundtracks and Mandy’s intimate interviews. And to help us see the bigger picture, we asked Kristen Rosengren of Academy Health, a veteran and a 10 year partner who has guided IRL’s communication and dissemination work from the very beginning, to moderate a conversation about what these artifacts reveal. And it is true that of all communication modes in human history, movement came first, then music, then language.

In this episode, you’ll hear Kristen’s conversation with Caroline and Mandy as they look back through the lens of a camera and a decade to trace how trust is built, how humans evolve together, and how a program becomes a community. This is a story told in glances, in songs and in shared moments. We hope this helps you see and feel what 10 years of promising practices and partnership can look like. Let’s turn the lens in IRL.

Kwame Owusu-Daaku 04:31

I would say, letting go, learning to let go.I never thought of myself as a type A person, but I think being an IRL fellow, that part of me kind of came out, you know, because I was really passionate about the process we’re using, and almost a bit too fastidious about it that it had to proceed in a certain way and certain order with, you know, certain people. And so, yeah, just learning to take a step back and sort of let go of my preconceived notions of how the research should play out, or how our collaboration should end you or even what the outcomes will be, has been really, really helpful for me, because I realized that when I have let go, when I’ve taken a step back, when I have allowed others to shine, and do you know their work, you know it’s it’s been a more fulfilling experience, like for all of us.

Lorraine Dean 05:22

When I started the IRL program, I thought of it as a research project, and I went in with a researcher’s mind. I mean, that’s what I’m trained to do. But then as I got through the program, I realized that so much of the program was about investing in human capital. It was about investing in the relationships between us and researchers and community members in order to achieve, to achieve our goal. And I think that’s really important, because you can do research as a set of tasks, and research activities as a set of tasks really isn’t valuable without relationship. It’s it’s just essentially empty. So it was nice to be able to take concentrated time, to be able to spend just investing in relationships, building trust, building togetherness, building a common goal, and then bringing that to the table with a set of activities that we could move forward in the name of guaranteed income.

David Craig 06:16 

So when I do qualitative interviews and somebody I don’t know, who has very different life experiences than I do, shares about their life. It’s humbling. The wisdom that they have is awesome, and for me, IRL creates that space where we all come in and are invited to a space of trust to share deeply and candidly and introspectively, and to be able to move beyond maybe the places where we’re stuck or the barriers that we feel we can’t get through, and to dream bigger. So for me, it’s been transformative in how I think about research and collaboration and leadership.

Jud Laughter 07:06

I’ve actually done two professional development sessions now for my college and for a bigger university group about collaboration agreements based on the IRL process and templates and all of that. Just really presenting – Here are the tools. Here’s an ideal case. And it’s been interesting to see how many people have said, we’ve never even thought about equitable, equitable budgeting. How do we do equitable data dissemination, like these questions that the gift we were given of six months of time at the front to work through those exercises and build that collaboration agreement was invaluable. And something, you know, I just last week was doing a session, and someone asked, “What do you do? when the funder, like, wants you to start work right away”, and it’s like, I hope you can imagine some way to build in time and money and space to do this work ahead of time, because it will only it’s going to save you time.

Jennifer Jabson-Tree 08:20

I’ve been using it in a lot of different ways. I mean, this has been revelatory for me in so many ways, it’s given me the structure I needed to anytime I start working in an interdisciplinary team, whether we’re meeting to write a grant or analyze data get a manuscript out, whatever we’re doing, I use these principles, these templates, these practices with my new colleagues. I also teach them when I teach research methods for students, so that these early career students learn how to engage equitably with community partners, with organizational partners. So it’s really added to my toolkit and how I do research in all facets and domains,

Eboni Winford 09:01

I’ve always been very assertive. Surprised. She snorted, but I’ve always been very assertive. and this is the first time where as a community partner, I have been prioritized, because in my other partnerships with academic partners, or, you know, research oriented partners, I get the shit end of the stick, like, “oh, by the way”. And now with this partnership, they’ve been like, no, whatever Eboni says is where we’re going to start, because she’s representing the community. And of course, we push back against each other. If it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be the best way, but I have never had my voice amplified as a community partner in the way that all of that work we’ve done has encouraged us to do like and now I don’t expect anything less when I enter another partnership. I’m like, nope. Let me tell you what’s gonna happen. And if you’re not taking care of my patients, my staff or my organization, then the answer is, “No, I don’t want to play with you”. And I may have said. That before, but like I’m standing on business now, like, No, we’re not gonna play unless you honor what my community needs. And that’s been transforming for me as well.

Shoba Ramanadhan 10:10

I think the pace of this program allowed us to take a step back and say, “hey, look, this is what we pitched to the funders. What else should we be thinking about? How else should we do this?” And so we had all these planning meetings with the practitioners who basically said, “Yeah, we don’t actually want to do the data collection in just these ways. We also want to make collages. We want to do short videos. We want to have you attend these kinds of events so you see what we’re doing.” And these are the kinds of things that, you know, we could have added some of these things along the way, when we figured it out. But I think the fact that we asked them, you know, “what do you want to do, and how do you want to do it,” has given us a level of buy-in that we never could have had otherwise. And I was actually just talking with another fellow, and we were saying, for me, one realization has been, if you have to really plead with people to come along with you and do these things, then you have to step back and say, “Well, what is the barrier and what am I not what need am I not meeting?” Because now we’re not pleading with anybody, like people are excited about this. We are doing this together, and we’re finding this with other work as well, like, if we’re truly in alignment with a broader range of folks, it’s just like this momentum that builds, right? We don’t have to be convincing folks of anything. And I think that feels really good. It feels very honest. It feels like the work is going to live on well past the grant. So I think that that it feels really obvious, like people should be on board with you, but we get so caught up in these research projects where we have these deadlines and these funder needs and all these things, and just seeking that alignment in a really broader way, I think that’s going to change the way I do my work going forward.

Brian Sims 11:51

Yeah, I think the biggest learning is that the professional, disciplinary work that I think the average person does is very deeply tied on some level to their own personal journey as a human being. I knew that was true for me. I didn’t I don’t know if I thought it was like I was unique in that regard, but now I’m able to pretty much try to understand and tap into what it is like? Why are you doing this work? What is it about you that makes you interested or effective as a professional? And collaboration, really, for me, now doesn’t happen primarily at the disciplinary level. Now, it happens primarily at that personal journey, sort of narrative level. Wherever you are, what you’re doing professionally is tied to who you are as a person. So for me, collaboration is like, How can I find quality, like, really high caliber humans to work with and then try to make the professional and disciplinary sort of fit in, as opposed to, “oh, we’re in the same special interest group at this association. So now let’s try to work on a project”, because that just isn’t what has resonated for me. So that’s I also credit IRL with a lot of that, because this has just been a place that’s cultivated so many amazing opportunities and relationships and scenarios where you can really kind of see and appreciate the layers that that are behind, like someone’s professional work or that sort of thing.

Susan Perez 13:27

Structural racism and the realm of public health, how it just permeates across so much. It’s not just about health and health care and it’s about all the experiences individuals have in their own communities. In fact, a majority of individuals’ health is about the communities and places and how their day to day lives are absolutely what impact their health. And this fellowship has not only broadened my capacity to see beyond the health and healthcare system, but it’s also helped me with the degree of intentionality of how I navigate, walk through and see the lived experiences of the individuals in the place in which they’re living, surviving and thriving.

Larry Simmons 14:25

I believe that it has given me an opportunity to really understand the way that we all kind of come to this work, understanding that every last one of us are very different. Our experiences are different, but we all have this, this one goal. When I first started as the community partner, as someone who can be a little bristly and, you know, a little scratchy, sometimes. I came in feeling like, this is too fluffy. This isn’t no one’s really into it. It’s fake deep, you know, all of this. But over my time, building relationships with folks outside of the prescribed or scheduled meeting time. I’ve really learned that folks are really about business, and it just doesn’t look the same as it may look in Baltimore, you know, but we’re all here and are really trying to make change, and so it has definitely opened my eyes. It has allowed me to become friends and build relationships with folks that I may not have in any other space have connected with, but I definitely believe in all of the work that we all are doing when it comes to the change that’s changes that we’re looking for.

Dawn X. Henderson 15:33

oh, man, that’s such a beautiful question. I think I have learned so much since then. It’s always setting agreements and commitments. First, I think that our project did not necessarily, while we had an understanding with the school and the parents, I think there was no consensus and then collective around this is what our agreements are to each other. These are our commitments to each other and ensuring that there’s consensus around those commitments, and we have a way to revisit those straight. And I think with community work, that was the kind of things that matter. It’s like, oh, let’s go back. Let’s go back and look at our commitments to each other. Are we honoring this? You know what I mean? Do we need to change some things? Do we need to again, alter in a way where we’ve changed the path forward?

Ivan Douglas Hicks 16:34

I think to speak victoriously, there are people from different perspectives. There are people that are from everywhere, that have differences, even if we’re on the same team. And our ability to look at the community, even the beloved communities, we’re seeking to define, you know, individually, and you know, how do we? How do we, how do we use the relationships we have established, all right? And so I’ve learned from different perspectives. There has been an opportunity to have intellectual exchange that that is different, that has allowed me to fine tune my thinking and broaden my perspective. And so I think I’ve learned from people, is the short way to answer that question.

Kristin Rosengren 17:46

All right, let’s get these ladies up here. You brought tissues? Mandy brought tissues, y’all. All right, I think that these amazing women need no introduction, but let’s give them another round of applause, because that was amazing.

All right, for some of the folks from the way back years, I’m Kristin Rosengren. I’m with Academy Health. Academy Health has been a partner with the National Program Office for the entirety of the IRL program. I started as faculty. You might remember me talking to you about how to create a communications plan, and then became our delegate to the National Program Office a couple years ago when the fabulous Bonnie Claxton retired. So it is a pleasure and honor to be with you here today and to be on stage with Caroline and Mandy, and we’re going to talk a little bit about the process, a little bit about how we got that amazing product, and we’ll start there. So it was amazing. I love it. How did you get to that with seven years of photos and or 10 years, I guess? But Caroline, you’ve only been with us for the last…seven ish years of content that y’all had to go through. How did… where’d you start?

Mandy LaBreche 19:11

Well, I think it’s easier for me than Caroline, because I shot all those interviews last year at the 2024 Minnesota leadership meeting. And, yeah, I think going into it, my biggest fear is that no one would sign up, and that the sign up sheet would just like be empty.

Kristin Rosengren

No one in this room likes to talk …

Mandy LaBreche 19:32

I mean, but on camera and like, how it’s gonna be used. I just wasn’t sure. I’m kind of a competitive person, if any of you know even about things that do not need to be competitive. So I was like, if this sheet is not filled I’m going to be embarrassed. I want it to be filled up, and I don’t want to feel like I have to coerce people or bribe people with something from the merch store to do an interview with me. But surprisingly, so many people signed up. I think I had more interest than time slots, which was amazing. And a lot of people really didn’t prep, like I had this whole menu of questions. I wanted it to be a short interview. I wanted it to be easy, breezy. People pick their few questions. And a lot of people were just like, “just ask me whatever you want”. Like they didn’t even look at the questions. And I mean that the editing has been amazingly smooth. I feel like people barely started and stopped. Like, if I was in that interview, I don’t know I would be starting and stopping. “Oh, let me start over. Oh, I’m crying about this” so but yeah, it was just so smooth. It was just like one continuous take for everyone, and that’s made the editing really smooth, although it’s taken me a long time to have the attention,

I would say there were short interviews. I think I interviewed like 31 or 32 individuals and then four or five teams. So I would say there’s about like, three hours of footage, and there’s just gem after gem after gem. Everyone was so just polished. And, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s been really amazing. I love going back and looking at the tapes and I get all emotional. I feel like these past few months have just been like water works for me.

Mandy LaBreche 21:28

We had our final team retreat back in July, and I was kind of going through the archives, going through a lot of Caroline’s photos, going through VIP interviews. And I was like bawling crying, the whole just like the whole retreat, just like 10 years of this thing. And, yeah, it’s been an amazing ride. And yeah, it’s like, I’m so glad I got to do the VIP project. Yeah, it’s been amazing, awesome.

Kristin Rosengren 22:01

All right, so Caroline, seven years with the photos. What are we talking about here? How did you even begin to select?

Caroline Yang 22:10

Well, I think for each meeting, I probably photograph 2 to 3000 frames. But before I deliver to Mandy, I’ve already edited and kind of culled down to the best ones, so I didn’t have to pour through everything. But I think we counted up; I’ve documented 12 meetings, and never have I been with a client this long. And I’m glad I didn’t throw anything away. Definitely had them in the archives. And you know, it’s probably I went through at least 10,000 photos, but again, I had the favorite selected already, and then it was just kind of the difficult task. There’s so many good moments, and it was the difficult task of picking out which were the best. And over seven years, you know, we really just had to narrow it down.

Kristin Rosengren 23:00

Yeah, was there anything that you couldn’t get in, because we gave them a time limit? Y’all, they had to get the video down to like, 15 minutes. Was there anything that you really wish you could have put in, or any like fun archival finds, like, what? What didn’t make the cut? Anything that you wish had stood out.

Caroline Yang 23:18

I think main for me, it was mainly just probably redundant photos, or repeats of just people laughing and like, there are some people where I have folders of just images of them, you know, Michelle. So many good moments from Michelle, and just having to be more inclusive of who was in the collection, so we could only pick a couple of Michelle. But really, no, I think we put in a lot of our favorite moments.

Mandy LaBreche 23:50

Yeah, for me, I just had to narrow down. Like in each VIP interview, people answered maybe three to four questions. A few questions were common throughout, but I also had to kind of stay on point with the theme of the meeting and today, or this morning, I think, is covering the past. So there was, like a visioning question that I asked everyone that wasn’t really appropriate for this session, but it will be coming out in other forms. So it was just kind of narrowing it down. And then what I kind of landed on was people’s responses to their biggest learning in the IRL program.

Kristin Rosengren 24:33

Yeah, all right. So those were the softballs, just to get them warmed up. Now we’re gonna go deeper. Grab the grab. Make sure your tissues are handy. So I’m gonna start with you, Mandy, I know you, and I have been with the program since the beginning, different, very different roles. But as you look at the video and the work that you’ve done here, what, what was the story telling you about who we are and what, what changes like as you were looking back, what changes did you see sort of reflected in our work together.

Mandy LaBreche 25:03

I was up late last night in my bed, making a little note, just kind of reflecting on the different prompts that Kristin came up with. [I did give them warning]. And yeah, she gave us warning. And I think the biggest story that IRL has told over the 10 years is really about the power of relationships and connection. I think I wasn’t one of the conceivers of IRL, so I probably shouldn’t speak for them, but I can’t imagine that at the when they were proposing to be the IRL National Program Center, that there was a big focus on relationship building and connecting with others. I think the focus was a lot on the research skill sets, the leadership skill sets, and specifically to the research you know, like figuring out your methodology, thinking about dissemination early, figuring out your communication or community engagement approaches, all those kinds of things which are very important. But I think the one thing that maybe we weren’t anticipating would be at the foundation of IRL is really the relationships and the connections that are made among a special group like this. And so I think that’s what the story tells. I mean I feel like in all of the interviews, and through the pictures that Caroline has taken, you can just see the level of connection and the relationships that have been built through this program.

And even just yesterday, I didn’t even really go into the social hour space, but just like chatting with people just like briefly, you just hear about how they’ve been connected through IRL. Some people maybe met each other before IRL, but a lot of people didn’t, and like Sarah Benatar was telling me her and Anu live two blocks, or, like, two miles away from each other. They didn’t know each other before IRL, but now they collaborate on tons of projects. Even just seeing like the cohort two members, it was Robert, it was Phil and Michelle and Matt, just when Regina walked through the hallway down here, just like the warm embrace, like, I mean, it was, it truly felt like what Zinzi was talking about earlier, like a family reunion, and like, all these connections came about through IRL, and that was just like a little sampling, you know, I was just having mini conversations with people. And, you know, Irene and Kia met at the IAPHS conference a week ago. Didn’t know that they were both IRL fellows, and now, a week later, they’re here at the IRL finale meeting. So I just think there’s just so many amazing connections and relationships, and that really has, I think, been at the core and really driven what people’s experience was in the program. I think even if you, you know, I’m sure if IRL program was Google reviewed, there would be a range of stars that we would get. A lot of people, I think, are really obsessed IRL can do no wrong. This has been life changing. You know, maybe a handful of people have their reservations, and that’s fair. But I think no matter what your experience was, as long as you put a little bit into it, showed up for something, showed up on some webinars, came to some in-person meetings. Like, I just think the return that people got was a lot, even if, even if maybe they had some shortcomings with their research or with their teammates. Like, I think there are so many connections and relationships that came about because of this program that made the program what it is.

It’s almost like, I don’t want to say, like, the research and the work doesn’t matter, but I mean, at the end of the day, it’s about coming together and kind of fighting for the same cause, which I think is so IRL. And so, yeah, I just think it really goes back to the connections and the relationships that were built here.

Kristin Rosengren 29:01

That 100% comes through in your video. I mean, like the transformative power of the relationships and how that changed the way people do their work was certainly really obvious to me. I want to go a little sort of more focused, and talk about maybe the transformative power of this relationship. I mean, you know, Caroline, you mentioned that you’ve never had a client this long. Can you guys talk a little bit about that relationship and like how that reflects, maybe the principles of IRL and what has made this relationship work so well for so long. Maybe Carolina? Let you start that one.

Caroline Yang 29:36

Yeah, well, from the very first meeting that I photographed, I felt something was different. I work with a variety of publications, media outlets, and cover different events, and this didn’t have the typical corporate feel. And I definitely from the very first meeting, I wasn’t treated like the hired help. And I just remember there was a vibrancy, there was a real family feel to it, but even after the first meeting, and then I think you guys hired me the next year. I can’t remember when we ran into each other at Baker’s Wife, but anyway, so I had worked with you guys once, and then, you know, a few months later, I ran into Mandy at Baker’s Wife, and she said something like, “it’s our goal to be friends with you.” And I was like, did I just say

that? That’s a total Mandy moment. Well, it was, it was so heartwarming to me because it was so unexpected. Again, most organizations, I just pop in and out, maybe on a you know, yearly basis, or at most, maybe two years in a row. And so that was my first real embrace. And then I remember, yeah, Baker’s Wife. And then after that, then I think there was COVID hit. And at the first meeting in San Diego, I flew in, and I went into the opening gathering, and I got off the elevator, and Zinzi gave me the biggest bear hug. And again, that was a shock, because I’m used to being treated as the hired help, just the fly on the wall. And I’ve just been really embraced by this organization and by all the attendees and the ops team in such a way that I think it does affect the photography and how I see you guys. When I feel an emotional connection and when I feel affection, especially, that definitely works into what I bring to the imagery. Also, I think having worked with you guys for so long, and especially with the ops team, getting to know people, I can start to anticipate when there’s going to be an explosion of joy or emotion, and I can kind of plant myself and get ready for the shot, make sure there’s a good background on it.

But I think that’s a lot of it. You know? The beauty of this is that it was my task to document what was here. It’s not my vision that I’m trying to make happen in front of the lens. I was just a fly on the wall observing the natural interactions that were happening here. And what I captured was really happening, so that’s really on, on you guys and what you’ve cultivated and the relationships that you guys have built.

Mandy LaBreche 32:30

I can’t believe I blurted that out in public, and I can. I remember after the first meeting, you photographed, Ifrah and I were just back at the office, and we both just kind of looked at each other. We were like, “Caroline was really cool. She like, lives in the Twin Cities.” And we’re like, “let’s figure out what we need to do to become friends with her.” And now it happened, and yeah, yeah, I’m just forever grateful.

Kristin Rosengren 33:02

So I mean, and I think that’s true when the Academy Health annual research meeting was here in Minneapolis last year, and one of the members of the communications team was like, “Oh, we got to find a photographer”. And I was like, “Nope, I know exactly who we’re working with”. So I got to bring her to that as well.

I mean, you spoke to this a little bit. But hey, Caroline, your photos have such warmth, like such heart, all of them. And you talked a little bit about how you read the room, but like… Is that something that you’re working for as an artist? Is that something that you’re trying to capture? How do you? How do you? How does that? How does that shape your vision, I guess, as an artist, because there is a real artistry there.

Caroline Yang 33:46

you know, I think, and this is something I tell my kids all the time, you really have to think about how you want to contribute to this world… Now I’m getting emotional… I Yeah, and so…

Mandy LaBreche 34:13

my moment’s coming too. Okay, you’re good.

Caroline Yang 34:19

You know, I had a really, kind of a backwards way of getting into photography. And until I found it, I just didn’t felt like I belonged. So photography is my contribution, and I want to see the best in people, and that’s my goal. And you know, I get, I get something out of witnessing these interactions as well. And with witnessing genuine connection, gosh, especially in this climate that we’re living through. That first meeting, I remember feeling a sense of hope because the loudest voices that we’re hearing right now are not the voices I want to teach my kids. And so when I come to these gatherings, it’s like a reunion of hope, and it’s a good reminder that there are people working on the important things.

Kristin Rosengren 35:31

Yeah, we’re just going to sit with that one for a moment.

Kristin Rosengren 35:41

The pictures of joy. This work is so hard. And as I was looking at the as I was looking at the package before we came, the pictures of joy, like the just the release of it, the way people feel safe in their joy comes through in those photos. And I think, I think that captures the heart of IRL so deeply, and I’m just so grateful for those moments.

So I’m going to, I’m going to shift us a little bit, because we were supposed to talk about like the past, but we are going to move into a future. So, you know, the prompt is, how do you think that this piece that you’ve created reflects your vision for the future? And I think you’ve, you’ve started us down that conversation Caroline, but you know, what is the message as you’re putting together the video and the in the photos? What is the message you hope to send to the world about what IRL has been and what it can be going forward. What’s its contribution to the future?

Mandy LaBreche 36:53

I’ll try to start, even though this question shouldn’t be a surprise, because I did see the prompts.

I don’t know if this story will resonate, but in the early days of IRL, I don’t know why, but I was kind of vocal and kind of in this mentality that I was not going to be on IRL for all 10 years. I was like, I’m gonna be here. I love it, I love my job, I love this program, but I’m only gonna be here for like, five years, max, that I’m gonna move on to something else. I don’t know why I would like talk about it very openly, which is probably pretty stupid. And I do remember one time I was talking about it, and Ifrah was like, “Why are you only thinking about it as like, five years there’s nothing wrong with like, she was like, I actually think it’s a great thing for someone like you to like just stick with the program for all 10 years. How amazing is that?” She was maybe speaking a little selfishly, because she thinks I’m a good boss, but I mean, I’m so glad that she just gave me a different perspective on it, and I’m so glad that I stuck with it through the good times and the bad times. I think about if I would have stuck to that five year mentality, just like all that I would have missed out on. I mean, I would have missed out on cohort six and seven. That would have been devastating, huge loss, huge missed opportunity. I would have missed out. I’m not good at the math here. I would have missed out on graduation celebrations, which are my favorite IRL events. All of you should know that if you watch my hype video, but I probably got like, 13 views. But like, I would have missed out on the graduation celebrations for cohorts, 4, 5, 6, 7, for sure, maybe I would have missed out on three, and then I just think about just there’s something with, like sticking with something, even when it’s very challenging, even if morale is low, and just all the benefits that I reaped from sticking with.

I think about recently, I’ve just been reflecting a lot about IRL and my 10 year journey, and like this is just one example of something huge that I would have missed out on. But as you know, there’s an IRL podcast called the Promising Practices for Health Equity and the QR code does work, it was reinstated. But anyways, so last spring, we decided that we were going to do an IRL podcast. Krystal and Robin and Cody kind of roped me in to being part of the podcast advisory team, and I was very reluctant at first, and almost kind of didn’t want to do it. But sometimes with Robin, you don’t have a choice. It’s not an invite, well, it’s an invite, but the only option is to say yes, [you were voluntold]. I was, you know, I thought about ways to like “I don’t want to do this”. And I, you know, I thought about all the different ways I could try to communicate that to Robin and Krystal and Cody, but I didn’t want to put up a fight with Robin. So I was like, Okay, I’m gonna do this thing.

And last spring, I think it was just last spring, we started planning. We started meeting weekly. And like, now we have a podcast, and we’re in season two. And like, I had worked with those three, obviously, on various things in IRL, and we were cool, but I maybe didn’t feel like, super, super, super connected to them. And now, like, I don’t know what is it? Five months later, our group chat is probably 10 million messages deep, and it’s maybe 15, 20% about the podcast, and Robin reminding us on stuff that we said we would do for the podcast. And then it’s just like 80% just like talking as if we’re like, friends of 20 years. Is that right for Cody? No, we wouldn’t be friends with him when he’s like, five. But you got what I mean? Like, it’s like we’re like, lifelong friends. It’s like we’re cousins, it’s like we’re siblings, and like, the chat is just a lot about just, like, just everyday things, asking for advice, like just talking about personal struggles and like, through that group, I mean, they’ve it’s just such a group of like, love and care and like, I always think about, with any like job, you kind of need your like one person. Even if the job sucks, even if your boss is awful, even if the work is boring, like, etc, etc, you always need, like, your one person to get through and to, like, have fun with it and to make fun of all the ridiculous things. But I’m, like, through IRL, I mean, I feel like I have 25 of my people who I can show up every day as myself. It’s mostly embraced. Sometimes I take things too far. I’m impulsive. I’ll make an inappropriate comment, but also, like, I’m just so connected with these people, like people can, in a very loving and caring way, call me out when I make a stupid, inappropriate comment, like I have done recently, and Megan, and when he so lovingly called me out, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that was ridiculous to say, like, I can’t believe I would say that”. It’s just such an environment where you just like, feel like where I just feel like you just like you found your people like you can like, I don’t know for me, you found your people, if you can show up at your job that you’re paid to do and be exactly who you are, not censor like, and that’s been so special to me

Kristin Rosengren 43:04

And I think it’s important that it’s not just us, right, like, I think that’s the experience of IRL for so many people, right, that the community and the connection and the transformative relationships, right, this is a place, and I think that’s what you capture in your photographs Caroline like this is a place where you come whole, right? And people do, I think let down some guard, and I think that’s what comes through in the photos and in the videos. And I guess the question for all of us is, how do we take that out into the world? How do we take IRL and create community? How do we create transformation with what we’ve learned here, so that we can create those spaces in our own communities and in our own states, and maybe one day again in this country. I think when we think about the beauty of the future. That’s my two minutes of lecturing.

Caroline any parting thoughts for you on the vision for the future? How will you take what you’ve learned at IRL into the rest of your career and in the rest of your world?

Well, again, I think it’s about what you want to put into the world. And this has been such an unexpected gift for me in being included in a family. The last three or four years, I’ve taken for granted that it’s twice a year I get to come to this reunion, and it’s really going to be sad not to have that. But I became addicted to that, to that sense of family and connection. And while I know it’s rare in my line of work to find that with whether it be organizations or companies that I’m going to be working with, I think it’s something I’m going to be seeking out. And I think when once you experienced it, it’s that much easier for you to also contribute and create it. And I hopefully we will all walk away with a sense of that.

Kristin Rosengren 45:14

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I love it. A book called reunion of hope.

I’m saying, [get the ideas going], and you can share those in the break, because I have used 10 minutes of our already short break, so we’re going to wrap this up and welcome our community people back. Don’t leave yet. Don’t leave yet!. Our community organizers have stuff for you, but thank you.

Krystal Lee  45:35

Thank you for listening and imagining with us. If this episode resonated with you, I have two things to ask of you. First, share this episode on social media with friends, family, or anyone who you think will enjoy the podcast. If you feel like going above and beyond, leave us a review on Apple podcasts or give us five stars on Spotify. This helps us reach other listeners who are working towards health equity. Learn more about the fellows and the projects behind these stories by visiting our website, ir leaders.org

Krystal Lee  46:07

We also encourage you to watch the full story jam video series on our YouTube channel. The link will be in the show notes, a special thank you to Kriss Wittmans for bringing our collective vision to life. Watching Kris work in real time was a remarkable experience. She listened so intently, capturing the essence of each story and synthesizing the diverse narratives into a single cohesive visual. She made the intangible tangible, and in doing so, created an anchor point for our continued work; a reminder of what is possible. To see the visual representation of our stories created by Kriss Wittmann of Wittmann Studios. Check out our show notes. Thanks again for being with us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care.

Mandy LaBreche  47:02

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Luis Ortega and Ashley Ellis

Season 3, Episode 2 | January 29, 2026

Speakers: Mandy LeBreche, J. Robin Moon, Krystal Lee, Ashley Ellis, and Luis Ortega

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity  podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity , the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host. Krystal Lee and my co-host today is J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research, Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey, Robin

J. Robin Moon 00:38

Hi Krystal. Happy New Year.

Krystal Lee  00:41

Happy New Year. Oh my gosh, Robin. I’m so excited to finally be kicking off season three of our podcast, the final season. I am so excited about it, but I also find it a little bit bittersweet. But I do think that we have done what we set out to do.

J. Robin Moon 00:58

Yes, for season three, the season we’re calling Envisioning the Future. Over these episodes, in season three, we will be hearing stories told by our IRL fellows and alumni – visions for the future rooted in the deep community work they have been doing.

Krystal Lee  01:17

And to launch this season of vision, we knew we had to begin with two very special guests. Today, we are joined by Luis Ortega of Storytellers for Change, and Ashley Ellis of the Breathe Collective. Welcome Ashley and Luis.

Luis and Ashley 01:33

Thank you for having me. Hello. Hello.

J. Robin Moon 01:36

We’re so happy to have you both here with us. Very excited. Let’s kick our conversation off with one of our IRL signature promising practices, checking in with each other. Well, this one’s easy. It’s a new year. Today is January 12. What is your one intention for the new year? I will start. I have a few but one intention that I’ve been waiting for two years leading into the new year to really start thinking about it every day, is to be not “time poor”. That’s a little different from just saying to be time rich. Somebody who’s not from the US, who’s from a Buddhist country in Asia has referred to me, and not as criticism, not as anything, just, you know, just to say, he could have said, you know, “Robin is very busy”. He was talking to someone else about us, and he said, “Because Robin is time poor”, and that did something in me. I could go on and defend myself about why, and I still enjoy my work, and I love every hour of what I do, all of that, but still, that apparently makes me time poor. And I don’t want to be poor in anything, and I find it very refreshing to hear that being busy is actually not a positive, affirmative thing. So I’m going to do something about it. I think it’s going to be a lot more about prioritizing what I do with my time. And I don’t know exactly what’s got, what’s going to what that’s going to look like, but that is my one intention, to not be time poor. Krystal bounce it to you.

Krystal Lee  03:23

Thanks, Robin. I also have a couple of things that I wrote down, but I think I will share that I’m going to my intention this year is that I’m going to allow myself – I’m going to try my best to – allow myself to be taken care of. That is not something that comes naturally to me. I am an eldest child and eldest daughter of an immigrant family, and most of the stereotypes about people who hold those identities ring true for me, and it is not an easy thing for me to release control or, you know, just allow others to take charge. And I am intending this year to do less of what I usually do, and do more of allowing myself to be taken care of. I am going to toss it to Luis. Luis, what’s one of your intentions for the new year?

Luis Ortega  04:20

Yeah, thank you Krystal, and Thank you Robin, and hello Ashley. And I’m gonna say that for me is fluidity. How so to give you some context, for the last couple years, so much of my personal commitment to my well being, my own healing journey, which I believe is interconnected. We are larger, collective healing journey was very much grounded on a deep commitment to consistency around a variety of practices. Over the last, I would say, nine months, a lot in my personal life has changed, which has essentially made consistency, how I’ve known it for the last couple years, very difficult to continue to practice, and I noticed within me that there was a resistance to shift these practices that had really offered me so much well being, and I realized that part of what I had to do was not so much compromise on the consistency of the practice, but to embrace fluidity. Meaning, how do I move in new ways that allow me to continue to bring those practices into my life, but within very different contexts, geographical context, material, physical, emotional, spiritual, and there is a contemplative place where I’ve been holding on to that fluidity that has allowed me to find a space for hope some of the most pressing tensions and questions that I’ve experienced over the last couple months, this space of fluidity has allowed me to be more at peace with them. So I’m moving into 2026 really thinking about, how do I embody more of that in my life? And Ashley, I’ll pass it over to you.

Ashley Ellis  06:12

Hey, y’all, I’m glad to be here. One intention that I have for the new year, and I’ll probably just keep it simple, is to live more fully, more embodied, more connected, more aligned, so that I can feel more alive. You know, everything else is falling to the wayside. You know, to just be fully present to this life and in my body. So that’s my intention. Is to just be more connected, more embodied, more aligned.

J. Robin Moon 06:52

Thank you so much. I want to, like, almost sit here and think about what you just two said without moving forward for now. Made me think, as you always do, Ashley and Louise. Okay, so before we dive into this episode, Krystal and I wanted to share a little bit of the why behind this conversation, why we brought you two together for this season opening episode Krystal, would you like to start?

Krystal Lee  07:27

Yes, I would. How did you know? As we’ve mentioned, this season of the podcast is about envisioning the future. The stories that will be shared on this in the episodes in this season are from IRL fellows and alumni as they envision the future. Their visions for the future based on the community engaged, community centered, community led research that they have been doing. The lessons that they learned and talked about in season two. So I asked myself, “Why are the stories important?” And the answer is something that I learned from Luis, which is that stories are directly connected to the systems around us, right? I am clear that stories told over and over become narratives. Narratives spread over time become mental models, and mental models become the foundation for the systems that we create. So if we want to change or shift systems, storytelling has to be part of that process. So then the question becomes, “what are we shifting these systems towards?” It’s not enough to be anti-something, as Shawn Ginwright suggests. We must have a vision or an intention for the change that we want. And for me, that’s where Ashley’s work comes in. For me, Restorative Justice Principles have created the space world where everyone feels like there are part of a community, where their needs are met, where people and relationships are centered and prioritized, which is something that we heard from a lot of our teams in season two about relationship, community and trust being important elements of the community led, community oriented research that they were doing. And so I see this as a completely new way of being, and I thought it would be helpful for us to set the stage for the stories that we will share, the visions of the future that our IRL fellows and alumni will share with us in our in their stories, by having this conversation with Luis and Ashley about where does you know narrative change storytelling for narrative change and restorative justice intersect.

J. Robin Moon 09:53

Yes! And because what became overwhelmingly clear in season two and really even starting with season one and every single episode literally, is that relationships and building such human relationships are the key ingredient for meaningful change in the community and at the systems level, like the necessary ingredient that makes the dish that we want to cook. The kind that academic journals rarely talk about as evidence for successful research or community engaged research. And restorative practices teach us how to be with one another, how to build relationships. And Luis taught us how individual stories told and retold over and over again, change narratives and systems like Krystal as you say,. Basically, individual transformation and systems change are inseparable – is the main learning  we’ve had. As adrienne maree brown suggests, we can grow a compelling future together through relatively simple interactions. We can intentionally change in ways that grow our capacity to embody the just and liberated worlds we long for. It’s in her emergent strategy book, page 24. RJ, or restorative justice or restorative practice is how we get to these just and liberated worlds. That’s one of my our major learnings. It is the path we travel where we figure out how to be in community and in relationship, as opposed to doing great programs and, you know, implement structures or whatnot. We have learned that experientially through our journey over the last few years that individual transformation, again, is completely tied to system level transformation. So that is why opening this season with you two feels really essential.

Krystal Lee  12:07

Thanks, Robin, thanks for sharing that. I think it does a pretty good job of setting the stage. And so I want to ask you our first question, Robin, why did IRL as a leadership as a research program seek out RJ training and storytelling training, what was happening and what was the gap that we were trying to fill in the program.

J. Robin Moon 12:30

I love telling these stories, and I’ll be as brief as I can, because I’m anxious to hand it over to our guests here. The story is really about two things, one, a desperate realization that we needed to change something more fundamental than trying different programs, modalities, frameworks and models, or even like different leadership, like individuals, as you know, in the leadership. And I do want to preface this by saying like this is not unique to IRL program or any other programs or organizations. I think that we were able to and, you know, with the pandemic as a backdrop or foundation and backdrop all of it, we were really able to see something fundamental needs to change. Otherwise nothing is going to change in the way we’re doing things. So otherwise, you know, we would be just treading the same water all the time. That’s number one. Number two, a very humble realization that things could come together without one, you know, individuals or specific person’s own effort, necessarily. But it’s really when one curbs their ego and keeps the intention very strong without really trying so hard to do things. And that’s when we met Ashley. And like, the way that she came around, she came about was also pretty, I think, emblematic of this whole point of the story, which it was an accident she came we had a restorative justice webinar that we’re going to put on, and it was a last minute cancelation, and I think it was really within a day, like the day before the webinar, Ashley came as to substitute replace this cancelation. And we met Ashley, and I think all of us at the National Program Center went we need more of Ashley. We’re going to talk about, I hope you will all talk about how it all went. But you know the way that Ashley introduced restorative practice as not crisis management, which, I mean, I knew very little about restorative justice going in. I thought it was something, it’s a way of dealing with the problem when there’s actually a problem already at hand. She taught us that it is ways of being with one another in community, and her introduction of adrienne maree brown, specifically her emergent strategy, her book and Shawn Ginwright and his book Four Pivots – those languages, it’s not that we didn’t have it among us. We had them, sort of in theory, intellectually and academically. Ashley, really walked us through to show us what that actually looks like in action.

And then Luis came around when we started looking. I think it was early summer of 2024 when we’re planning Krystal and I were planning for the 2024 annual October leadership meeting for the IRL. We were by then, already very much into restorative practices. And I personally, I was very obsessed with how to practice more of it, and we knew it had, you know, something to do with story circle, something to do with story. And the way that I personally have heard about storytelling in social like a social research world, or, you know, social even justice within public health world, was either really academic, like oral history, you know, and research around, like ethnography and research around storytelling and with storytelling as a method or something more. Again, this is my, my, my impression, like, woo, woo. Like, tell stories. I’m still like, I did not have a way to connect to how that was actually going to be a vehicle to change our society, and, you know, ourselves. So we were looking and long story, very short, we wanted, we’re like, we’re going to invest money. We’re going to invest the money that we have to really find a quality storytelling trainer for the workshops we would offer for the fellows. We met with a number of different organizations and individuals, and we realized rather quickly that storytelling like skills and techniques were not what we really needed to offer. What we really needed to offer is how to use the storytelling in the community, and two, how to co-create stories that is not about like a stand up, like a TED talk situation, and three stories of not past or the present, but the future, future with critical hope. And lastly, the goal of changing what is beneath the narrative, to how to change the mental model. And I didn’t have these languages, language around what I just brought it up until we met Luis. And Luis was the one that we had to bring in, and he also spoke the language of Shawn Ginwright, adrienne maree brown and, you know, others like Marshall Gantz. We knew that we found the right person, and the rest is history. I try to make it really brief. That’s the best I could, Krystal.

Krystal Lee  17:46

And we will leave it at that. Ashley and Luis, how about you tell us what called each of you to this work with IRL. Why did you say yes to us? Let’s start with Ashley.

Ashley Ellis  18:01

So I didn’t know what IRL was. When I was invited to do the webinar, I got a call from a good brother of mine who when he usually asks me things, it’s a yes, even without knowing. And so I was like, Yeah, you know, I don’t know what this is about. And if you’re inviting me, it’s only one thing, not one I can talk about many things, but the work that I am embedded in is grounded in restorative justice. And so I showed up with what I had. Not knowing how it was really, you know, going to be received, or anything like that. And so, um, but I said yes to him, and because, you know, he was a yes for you all, I showed up and I did what I have been called to do. But when you all, reached out after the fact to ask me to come. I thought that it was initially just about, you know, doing an RJ training with you all, and I think that I had the opportunity to sit with the team at the time, to really get a sense and a feel. And it was in those moments that I recognized that what you all were asking me to do, you actually needed work that was deeper than just that. And in those moments is what I say yes to, because I saw a community that wanted to be different with one another, to have something different happen in the larger context of the community, and I wanted to support you all in doing that work. Because I felt like that was going to be essential to whatever you had imagined you wanted to do. It will have to start with you all. It will have to start with the relationships. And so I wanted to say yes to that journey with you all, because I knew that it’s what you know, sometimes you can go in a room and folks are requesting a service or something of sorts, and you’re like, “you know, I think you just want the information” right? Like you just want to know how to do a thing. And I think that was what you all sensed into but when I sat with you all, what I felt and was interpreting is that you wanted more, but you didn’t have the language for that yet. And so that’s why I say yes, because I could sense the commitment that you all had, not only to the process, but to one another and to the greater community. And so yeah…

Krystal Lee  21:01

Man, you said you showed up with what you had, and it was exactly what we needed! How about you? Luis, tell us about your journey, your decision to say yes to us.

Luis Ortega  21:14

Ashley already articulated this in such a beautiful way. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna build on on what Ashley offered, because it resonates deeply. And I was trying to think about our first conversations over zoom, as many of my conversations usually are at the beginning, when I’m meeting a potential new partner or organization or client collaborator. And really I think what I’m what I’m interpreting from, from Ashley’s or an element that I’m interpreting from Ashley’s answer to the question, which resonates with me is that it was really a continuum, and that from the beginning all the way through our first in person engagement, facilitating a storytelling workshop, supporting a StoryJAM session, and I’ll say more about the StoryJAM session later, that there were a variety of affirmations. And I think another way of saying this, perhaps, is that I’m a firm believer in reciprocity. I’m a firm believer in in lak’ech, the Mayan concept, “you’re my other me”. And I think there’s something that I’ve learned to to understand or notice in my conversations with organizations and collaborators over the years, this idea, and again, building on Ashley’s language here, right? That you do get a sense for who is seeking just content or information, and who is seeking relationship and transformation, and from the very beginning, I just sensed a reciprocal curiosity in each other’s work. I sensed from your questions that there was a deep interest in wanting to understand storytelling beyond performance. And not to say that performance and storytelling don’t have a role to play in our social justice work, but really this question of how, how our stories interconnected with our systems change work. What is the role of storytelling in an academic context that also transcends quote, unquote academic frameworks, right and or more traditional ways of thinking about where stories should be placed in an academic context, and how do we lean into the embodiment of narrative? How do we lean into understanding what is our personal commitment to transforming ourselves in the larger context of systems change work and how do we not just make it an analytical exercise, but a deeply personal one? I sensed a lot of these from our first conversations, and I say it was a continuum, because one thing is to sense and to begin to have an inclination towards saying there’s something powerful that’s emerging here. Another thing is to then show up and seeing people embodying that curiosity, right? That moves beyond the transactional. So for me time and again how you Krystal, how you Robin, showed up in the context of the relationships that we’ve been building since then, since collaborating, how many others in the IRL community showed up, how I was welcomed into the space. All of that and so much more time and again led me to say yes to the work and to say yes to show up as authentically and courageously as I could.

Krystal Lee  24:38

Thank you all for sharing your decision making process, it’s pretty well aligned with my experience of your joining our team. I wonder if you could help us and our listeners kind of weave the threads together. So can you both talk about where restorative justice and narrative change meet, and kind of, how are they in conversation with each other?

Luis Ortega  25:09

Ashley, I was actually curious if I could ask you a question so to get this started, and I’m wondering, could you tell me about the story behind why you do what you do right now. Why do you do restorative justice?

Ashley Ellis  25:30

Yeah, okay, so I’ll thank you for asking for the story. So I’ll give a quick synopsis of what I think is probably two parts to this story. When I was in college, I really had a transformative encounter. I was a Sports Management major, but my heart always knew I wanted to work with young people, and I had to keep a scholarship I had, this is my freshman year. I had to take, like, one more credit, and I took this Juvenile Justice seminar. And the second day of the seminar, our professor took us to Joliet IYC, which was like, considered, like a maximum secured juvenile kind of prison. And it was like my first, yeah, I was the only young woman taking the course, and I was the only Black person. And I remember touring the facility. And, you know, we are these young people. They, I saw a young person. I remember him being like, 10 or 11 at the time, shackled. And a part of this tour. They was like, Do y’all want to see what was considered like the shoe? It was solitary confinement, and I was and my mind couldn’t wrap around children in solitary confinement. It didn’t make sense to me. And so as we are journeying to the shoot, I thought it was going to be empty, because why would you take people to see young people in these cages? But to my surprise, we’re on this unit, and each set of doors I pass, another face appears. And it literally felt like something out of a movie, because I was like, “maybe this not real”. But by the time I get to the end of the unit, I look down and there is nothing but black and brown faces at the doors, and something shifted in me. Then it was like, you have something to do with these young people. And I really didn’t know what it was, but what I did know was that they were trapped inside of this system. And when I say system structurally, not just inside of this literal institution. But I think, like the systems that destroyed our neighborhoods too, because I was hearing stories of young people who would get off, you know, they would get sent home on a train, and they would commit a crime when they got to the city just to be sent back because they had nowhere to go. And it really shifted something in me. And I was like, there has to be a more healing paradigm that interrupts this cycle before they even get here. And I didn’t know what that looked like. And I met a good brother, Marshawn Hendricks, who was my big brother’s friend, and, long story short, he introduced me to some people working with young people, and they asked me to take this training, this restorative justice training. I was like, I don’t know what this is. And Cheryl Graves, Pamela Purdy, Ora Schub of Chicago, that’s where I’m from. I took this training with them, and it was like a fire had been lit. And I was like, This is it, you know, to sit in a process in a circle and to understand for the first time what it fully meant to be seen, to have space to tell your story, to have space to understand why someone has done what they’ve done, and to understand that as a whole person, you’re not just what you did. It was transformative for me. And I was like, I remember the last day, a woman walked up to me from the training, because it was all these mothers who were part of this training from the south side of Chicago, and she said, this is going to be the work you do. And I didn’t know, because nobody I knew had ever really been doing this work in the world, but I knew that, like whatever I touch, I want to do it in a circle. Whatever I do, I want to do it like this, because I felt myself being transformed in that moment. And I knew that if it could happen that way, that on a larger scale, we could transform communities. We can transform the lives of young people if we gave them space. And so I think that like that was why I started doing the work that I was doing, because Octavia Butler says, “All that you touch, you change, and all the changes changes you”. And I was changed, and I knew that the little girl in me needed this and so many other young people. And the more I did it, I realized like, Oh, this is for all of us. And so that’s the story of how I got into restorative justice and why I fell in love with it as a process, as a way of being, as a tool for liberation, freedom, and as a different paradigm for what our young people could encounter, you know, before they reach the system.

Luis Ortega  30:52

Ashley, thank you so much for sharing that story. I’m not surprised to learn that you and I share a lot in common, a lot of similarities in the narrative arc that you’re sharing. I oftentimes think about the power of storytelling as time traveling, yes, on duet mechanism, and you have me traveling as you were sharing. And of course, I mean at the same time, we do have different positionalities, and there’s different ways that I’m sure that you and I experience the world, but the places where I just found some immediate commonalities and that, I think, invite me to also and answer this question around where does storytelling narrative change, restorative justice intertwined, well, first and foremost, in the embodiment of what you just did right, like you sharing a story about your own journey of transformation, and rooted on healing, rooting on reciprocity, rooted on feeling whole and well and in just relationship. And for me, giving a narrative right to that process that allows us to metabolize it, that allows us to see it as core to who we are, past, present and future is so essential to healing. I, not unlike you envision myself also working with young people when I when I was young. That kind of comes from my ancestry, because I come from a family of educators, so I always envision myself as an educator. Nevertheless, as an undocumented person in this country, the pathway into being a classroom educator was just not there for me. So I found other ways to do youth work and education work, and in many ways, my pathway, above all, was through community organizing. And I used to think I arrive into community organizing work from a place of anger, right experiencing, and not to say that there was no anger or that there was no no fear, or that there was no tremendous trauma along my journey, facing all kinds of injustices, all kinds of marginalization, just witnessing all kinds of horrible things happening to immigrant communities, to black and brown communities, To queer communities, I mean, that that anger was there. But I think really, above all, what was there for me was I believe in dignity, like just deep down, I believe that it shouldn’t be that way. I think early on in my community organizing work, I envisioned storytelling first and foremost, as an act of resistance, as an act of defiance, to say these, this way in which you’ve structured schools, this way in which you’ve structured how we conceptualize, quote, unquote, public safety, this way in which you’ve conceptualized who gets to have access to health care, and the way in which you conceptualize who gets to have an ID that allows them to claim belonging and or access to any type of public service, just really a call to say that’s broken, that’s not holding all of us. And unfortunately, while there was some sense of empowerment in getting them engaged civically and a lot of my community organizing work early on involved working with other young undocumented people. And so many of our stories follow a very similar narrative arc, and it was always at the time it seemed to me like this plea for belonging, right? Like, “let us belong with you in these systems that you’ve created”. And if you make these adjustments, right, then we could, we could graduate from high school, we could go to colleges, we could have access to healthcare, we could have drivers licenses. We could, we could, we could, we could. And these persistent resistance to being dehumanized, and persistent resistance to being told, “No, get out of here, right”? “You don’t belong here” and this pleading allows us to show you how we can embody the proverbial American Dream. There was empowerment in that, but there was also a lot of numbness, there was also a lot of disassociation, there was also a lot of compartmentalization. There was also a lot of trauma, and it was very confusing for me as a young person, I’m like 17, 18, 19, and working with others to tell these stories in front of our senators or representatives, city council, school boards, and we are, by the way, getting some tangible, material policy changes done. And I was so confused how these small victories and these moments that felt so empowering telling our stories at the same time had me feeling so numb, so disconnected. And I began to realize that storytelling as resistance, while important and part of our legacy, it’s not ultimately, it’s not ultimately what’s going to hold us. Because I don’t want a life of resistance, right? Like that’s not ultimately what I want. I don’t want a life of performance. Also, I don’t want to have to perform for a systen to see me and knowledge, finally, that I’m what I’ve always been, human and whole, worthy. And I saw that happen so much with so many other young people that I was working with. And again, not unlike you, it was in a circle, not in a legislative setting, not in a public hearing. It was in a circle in a forest, in a retreat being held by educators who were deeply committed to liberation, who were deeply committed before I had this language like restorative space, belonging like that embodied that, right, and held space for me to feel seen and to feel whole for the first time in a long time, and and the shift for me in that moment right being in this circle was essentially saying it’s not storytelling as a practice of resistance that we need to be committed to is a storytelling as a practice of liberation, and that requires healing. Yes. So that, to me, is where it intertwines right that narrative change and my biggest critique, right of narrative change efforts that I see in our larger ecosystem is that many of them are very obsessed with, “what is the right message” right, or “what is the right story”? quote, unquote, that’s going to get us to achieve that particular narrative shift that we may want in a particular context. And there’s the relational right? It’s not there, so it requires healing. So for me, restorative justice and narrative change are intertwined if we are deeply committed to liberation.

Ashley Ellis  38:30

Yes, yes. Thank thank you for naming and for sharing that story. I think since the moment I’ve encountered you even without knowing you. You know, and I’m I’ve, I’ve, have felt deeply aligned and interconnected. You know, I think our souls know one another from the past or something. I feel every time I’m with you, I feel like I know, you know you, you know. But when you talk about, like, storytelling as resistance, but not just as resistance, but as a tool for liberation, for healing. One of the things that came to my mind is Lucille Clifton has a poem, I think it’s called, Sometimes They Be Mad. But in the poem, she there’s this piece that in it, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s like “they asked me to remember, but they want me to remember their memories, and I keep remembering mine”. And I think about storytelling when you talk about as healing, it is a storytelling really is an ancestral technology that calls us into remembrance, right when colonization has told us a narrative about ourself, storytelling becomes the way that we get to return back to ourselves, right, that we get to remember that life beyond struggle, resistance, right, Life Beyond oppression, Life Beyond and we get to take back right, our power to in the way we tell our story by practicing it. I always talk about how, when I first got introduced to this work, it was not, and I think they were intentional. And I give homage to my elder, Sheryl Graves, Pamela Purdy, Ora Schub, when introduced to this work, it was not introduced to me as restorative justice. It was a, it was a peacemaking circle training, right? We were in this practice of circles, and the thing that drew me in was the stories. Seeing, literally witnessing people shift in their seats about the way they told the story. You know that one day you can show up and tell this story, and with your whole heart, see yourself one way, right for an for an example, right? You may see yourself as somebody who feels powerless, and by the time we finish this process, you can tell this exact same story in a very different way and understand how powerful you are, right? Because you’re remembering right, that this is a technology, and that’s why, when you say, like, I think any tools that are used for liberation can also be used for oppression, even the circle, if not done with intention and if not done with spirit. And so when I think about the interconnection of these two, I think that in indigenous practices justice came by way of relationships and story. And you know, we’re in the new time, and we’re remembering what has always been in new ways, and they are meeting each other, right? And I think activating something within our communities that says that not only do we have we get to be warriors the resistance, but we also get to be healers. And I think that Dr Fonya Davis talks a lot about that as well in her work as a restorative justice practitioner advocate that like, we can’t just be warrior, but we also have to be healer, and that they get to be two sides of the same coin. So all that to say, thank you for bringing that into the space and so yeah, I’m digress there,

Luis Ortega  43:01

Thank you so much. Ashley and again, so yes, we, our souls, have known each other that much I know. And I think, once again, I mean, there’s so much that you’re offering that people resonates with me, and I’ll briefly connect it to part of the introduction that Krystal did at the beginning of the podcast, around my thinking and understanding, around how stories, narratives, systems, structures, mental models, how all of that is connected, right? And I think back to your story that you were sharing with us, and your reaction to seeing the violence of a carceral system, right? Like, material you structurally right there, and I think about right, like, what are the stories that told over time became narratives, those generations became mental models that combine with material power turn into structures and policies and systems that make it possible for children, especially black and brown children, to be caged as a matter of legal practice, backed even by a moral claim. I mean, I think about so much of what’s unfolding around us right now and the narrative behind it, that those claim to use, quote unquote moral language and legal language, this is what’s right for, quote, unquote us, language that justifies the disappearance of people, public execution of people, the removal of people. And across history, that practice has been there since colonization times. Yeah, and that’s the place, right, where to your point like we do need resistance, right? We do need those stories that remind us, first of all, that resistance has always existed, right? This has never been a passive process. It’s never been here’s the brutal, violent dominance of a group, and then things just went forward from there. There’s always been a pushback. There’s always been a movement that calls into question that tremendous act of violence and pushes back against it, and the difficult balancing act there is, how do we fight while at the same time hold on to our humanity. When I say humanity, I mean our collective humanity. That’s perhaps like one of the most persistent, ongoing tensions that I’ve that I faced in my work. I so appreciate you naming that many of these tools, strategies, tactics, practices, right that we bring into our work with the intention of liberation and care and just relationship can also be deployed to harm to destroy, right that like a circle facilitated with the intention of removing humanity follows many of the same facilitator moves that I would use to create a circle that restores us into each other, right, and restores us in humanity. So I always, oftentimes think of stories as fire, right? Fire. Fire can be nourishing. Fire can be it’s intertwined with our history as humanity, right? This ancestral gather around fire to tell stories. I like to imagine that the first story ever told happened like that, a group of people around a fire, telling a story about what unfolded, and then memory began, and everything else began to unfold since then, and across so many indigenous cultures, like there’s these beautiful interconnections with fire, right? Like the Fire Keepers, who does that, who tends to it and fire can destroy. Yes. So for me, it’s a question of who wields it? Who wields the fire and a sacred responsibility that I hold on to and that I’m perpetually intentioned with. And I want to be clear that when I say tension, I think that’s a good thing. I think it’s a good thing for me to experience these tensions and ask myself critical questions about, what does it mean to facilitate this work, knowing and holding myself accountable to these work and to liberation. And this is where, and I’m wondering, perhaps, like, if you could then tell me what holds you as you do this work. Because, if we are keepers of fire, right, and if we are keepers of these approaches and practices that we know can bring healing, what is the principle or what grounds you as you do the work to remain rooted in the practice.

Ashley Ellis  48:24

So two things come up for me. One of them is the ancestors, my ancestors. Anytime I’m doing this work, I do it in my art, in my circle and RJ lineage, but I also do it within the lineage of my bones. And so when I think about who I am accountable to, I’m first accountable to the people I come from, right? Yeah, and, and I when I say I don’t have a process that is absent of spirit, is because they are the ones who I call in to support me in these spaces. And that may be different for some people, right? But I wouldn’t do anything, one that disrespects my lineage, or the lineage of anybody who is present in the room. And I think the second thing is, and this is something, you know, a principle that I also brought to IRL is that I don’t ask folks to do nothing that I’m not willing. And so accountability for me is that if I’m in a practice with you, right, I’m not doing this for if I’m in a practice with you, I also have to be willing to engage in the same right critical reflection. I have to be willing to engage in doing whatever the hard thing is. I have to be willing to be held accountable when we’re doing this. And I think that when we started the IRL work, it was something that I really wanted to not just tell them, but embody you know that this isn’t something that you’re doing for the fellows or for IRL, if you’re not willing to engage in it yourself, then to have an expectation for somebody else to do that and then wonder why things aren’t working when you not working it either for me, I think that is something that holds me right, is that I have a responsibility to this fire, but to know this fire, I have to know my own. I have to know my own fire right, or else the responsibility that I have is that I’ll burn myself and other people who are in the room and now where this tool, even by me, being held not just a tool, but this practice that is held by even me, if I’m not accountable, then I cause more harm than good, and now you’re experiencing what now can be a tool again, right, of oppression. You’re experiencing something that is going to cause harm, right? If I was somebody who took the stories of the folks in circle, and I go tell them to somebody else or write about them, i’m being extractive, right? That’s a tool of colonization. That’s what they’ve been doing, right? And so we can replicate those if we aren’t doing the work ourselves. And for me, I always try to, in my community, you know, I have folks who are in the rooms with me too, you know. So like, if I’m doing something that I wouldn’t do, like they, they get to call me in as well, you know. And so I want to be accountable to the people I come from, the people I stand with. And I want to be accountable to myself, knowing that I’m not doing harm intentionally, you know, to anyone who has trusted me with this process, trusted me with a circle, trusted me with their “Yes”, and so that’s that, that that’s how I hold that.

Luis Ortega  52:15

Thank you, Ashley and I cannot help but to want to invoke Dr. Shawn Ginwright and adrienne maree brown, as I reflect on what you’re offering, because what’s coming up for me, and part of what grounds me as I do the work, and I want to connect this also to the StoryJAM sessions that were part of the gatherings that we co facilitated with IRL fellows, is the importance in the language of Dr Ginwright to do mirror work. Is that critical reflection work that you are referencing Ashley and in in the Nawalien, which is the four movements in the language of my Nawat ancestors, one of those critical four movements we call the smoking mirror. And for me, the smoking mirror is that place, not only where we seek to see ourselves, but pay attention to that world we seek. Is a practice. It’s not it’s not the idea that the mirror just immediately gives you the answer. It is a journey. Right to seek into the smoking mirror, to seek my humanity, to seek each other, right to seek our growth, our hurt, our possibility, our ancestors, right, our past. I think also what’s profound for me about this pivot, right, as Dr Shawn Ginwright tells us in his book, from lens to mirror, right? And this is where I like one of my my, my critiques, right, of what so often happens in the social sector, what something can also happen in philanthropy, what can so often happen in academic institutions is just this reverence for the lens approach, like paralysis by analysis, right? Like, let’s study lets, study lets, lets refine, lets refined. And this is not to say, right? Like, once again, I do believe that there is a place for analysis. I do believe that there is a powerful commitment that we need to make to ongoing, thoughtful academic research like I do believe that is necessary. But one thing is to acknowledge that as a practice, out of many others and other things, to build like a dogmatic commitment to it to the point that you remove yourself and even the people who are most impacted many times by these practices from the action right so the reverence of the lens at the expense of people and relationship and community causes so much harm. And I think the same thing happens to how we tell our stories. Like this is where I see a lot of people applying a lens to their life experiences to analyze it, and then let me put it together in a nice formula so I can give you a two to three minute, five minute speech, instead of sitting with the more worthy but also challenging question of acknowledging I’m a vibrant being that’s here because of generations and generations of stories, and what will I contribute to this legacy at this moment, and what does that mean for what comes next? And for me, I deeply believe in this approach to narrative and what part of going bringing this back full circle, what had me saying yes to this work is just sensing that the IRL community was ready for a moment of emergence, right? Bringing adrienne maree brown here into the space and their language around fractals, right? Like just how these micro elements of us, embodying possibility, change, liberation, justice, healing, can give us, right, not only the reason to hope, but very material, tangible changes upon which we can build and then create systemic, structural change. And for me, story is essential to that. And the StoryJams, both StoryJAMs that I had an opportunity to contribute to. For me, a lot of what sustains me over time is seeing that once you create that container where you offer a group of people a healing center approach to connect with their stories and each other, right to engage in that reciprocal act of story listening and story sharing. And then create a container where they can open their hearts, they can invite us into their past and their present and their future. They can invite us into their fears, and they can invite us into their grief and their pain, but also their joy that witnessing, right that moment to me what you were referencing earlier, Ashley, right? Like, when you’re in a circle and people are shifting and you see them leaning, or sometimes you just feel like the group is holding its breath, waiting to hear what’s going to happen next, right? Like I felt that at the IRL convenings, and above all, I felt that in so many different interactions, but collectively, right? Like I’m always in awe when a whole group can hold a moment, can hold a person, right? And these moments, the first StoryJAM, I just have to say it was interesting, because as a facilitator like I remember, we had a fellow, and I will not go into the details of their story, because that’s their stories. But a fellow opened up with a poem, and the poem was so powerful, so beautiful, so compelling. And this fellow got a standing ovation, and then I remember thinking, it’s going to be interesting to see what comes next, and will we continue offering stand innovations. Every single storyteller on that StoryJAM got a standing ovation. It’s it was almost right, like, this is where, like, these things that you start just picking up as you’re like, there’s something here. It wasn’t performative. It wasn’t like, we have to do this now, there was a holding right, where the individual story is no longer individual, it is woven across the entire group. We become part of it. Right? Become part of each other. We are always part of each other. But how these stories remember, remind us, right, that remembering that reconnection, right, of like we belong with each other, it’s so so beautiful and so powerful. And now, and I’ll close with these, and I know we’re coming to the close to here, but the last piece that I’ll offer about the story jam reflections, and this is with the closing IRL gathering, as I was preparing to invite fellows to share for the story jam, I brought up a reflection from the scholar and poet Bayo Akomolafe and Bayo writes about how he’s wary of doors, right? He says doors are meant to behave right, like doors are part of the logic of the system. They’re meant to tell us which is the right way through which you enter a space, which is the right way through which you leave a space. They follow the logic of a structure. It’s been planned and that we ought to be wary, right like we ought to be critical of the doors that we are told we need to cross. I asked the fellows to take a moment to reflect on what are the doors that you’ve been told you have to get through to get to where you are today. When I’m understanding my audience too, right? Like, I’m talking to a lot of people who work in academic settings, a lot of people that work in leadership settings, right? Like, and the logic behind there, right? Like, what were you told that you had to do to get through the door? What would make you worthy of going through the door? What would allow you, what do you have to leave behind? What could you bring forward, like, what? Tell me about that door? I mean, I immediately felt like a reaction to the question. People were just in it and then on on the other end what Bayo also tells us is, what if, instead of paying attention to doors, we pay attention to the cracks, the ruptures, in the structure, in the system, those places that shows that our humanity cannot be contained, right, that whatever was built around us, it’s not it’s clearly not working. And what if we pay attention at the light right or the shadows that are moving through those cracks, and what if we move in that direction with our stories and with our inquiry and with our relationships and with our care? I remember the first time I heard Bayo talk about this and then read more about it, the image that kept coming to me is like whenever I’m walking on a sidewalk and I see the root of a tree just piercing through the concrete, and how that always just oddly, I don’t think I had ever quite put a thought around it, more like of an emotion, like every time I see it, I always feel this like kinship with the tree, because I know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to have something pressing hard against you and you’re still trying to breathe and move through it, and the brokenness, where I like the broken concrete, like how you’re blamed for it, like you’re the broken thing. And it’s really to your point earlier, right? Ashley around, like shifting that narrative is like, I’m not broken, like I’m not what’s broken here.

Luis Ortega  1:02:14

And that sense of restoration that comes from that shifting narrative, right through that mirror, work through that critical reflection through seeing that fractal and within that saying that is like, I know narrative change is possible because I’ve experienced it. I saw that happen with IRL fellows. That gives me hope.

Ashley Ellis  1:02:41

Thank you for sharing that. And can I, I’m a i, just because you, you, you had me remembering, and I want to this is a kudos specifically to the RJ team, because I think that when we talk about where the work that we’ve done and the narrative change work, what not only where it intersects, but where it meets, is when I came into this space. I think that there was an invitation that I offered to this team about how we could journey in this work, knowing that it would not be easy, because what we will have to do, we will have to move from that lens to the mirror right, and we will have to be accountable to one another about what was showing up in this space. So we had to not only look at what was happening, but we had to look at ourselves and the ways in which we were contributing and or pushing the narrative right. But part of that also meant that we had to get honest and truthful about not just our individual narratives, but the structural narratives that were present Right, and be willing to shift the both and. And I think that the fellows have been able to experience the depth of what you brought in through narrative change, because there was a shift in leadership. And their relationship to their stories, to being vulnerable as leadership, because that was not the practice that sense of being seen right, Sawubona! to be seen for not just who you are, but all of who you are and where you come from. They had to practice that amongst one another, and then make room for fellows to witness and practice it with them. And I think that, and I have to acknowledge that there was a paradigm shift that happened in a short amount of time. That’s not shade to anything, but it’s the witnessing that when this leadership decided that they will be willing to engage in a different narrative, then it opens up the portal and the possibility for the healing that took place in the first StoryJAMS. Because I don’t think that… there had to be a different sense of trust present in that room. There had to be a different level of relationality. Because, like I said, no shade, when I first, when I went to my first gathering, it was not the conditions that would have allowed that StoryJAM to happen. It was different. And so I just want to, I want to be able to acknowledge the work that happens, individually and structurally to know that they are all the time, right? It is not just interpersonal, it’s always and also structural, that when they shift, this possibility happens, and so I’m grateful for the work that we got to walk and journey through to create the condition for that healing to happen in a greater way. And so I just wanted to, yeah, I wanted to name that.

J. Robin Moon 1:06:59

Thank you both. As a checkout, there’s so many things that I have experienced through my learning and journey with you both. One thing that I want to bring up is, you know, to say, Sawubona to say, to be to see you, to see someone, to be seen, and like to experience that like really physically, feel that trust. I don’t really think that I have experienced the sense of being seen until I have encountered, into this, these practices with you. And just that, not just but that experience alone, is powerful enough to transform, like make that paradigm shift in somebody. You know that’s the beginning of the transformation. So I want to offer our checkout question as a wrap up. If you are to speak to the IRL fellows, the alumni, the ones you’ve met or the ones you hadn’t, what would be your word of encouragement for them in thinking about restorative practices and storytelling in terms of envisioning our future?

Luis Ortega  1:08:34

I can start and I want to offer two things. First is the practice of presencing, which I’m sure for the fellows who are listening, who are part of our last session. You might remember how I oftentimes invoke this concept, but I really want to bring us back to the idea of, what does it mean to practice presencing, right? And it’s the combination of being present and then sensing the highest possible future, not as guaranteed, but as possible. I do believe that one of the most critical practices that we are going to have to completely commit ourselves to to navigate the present and the poly crisis. Right? Like the separation of self from self, the ongoing separation between people, between ourselves and nature, is going to require us to bring our entire selves to a deep belief and commitment to presencing the highest future that it’s possible through our efforts and holding space with each other to envision that, to dream at a time when everything feels like we should be just rooted in the present, it’s going to require work and commitment. And I remind us that it is entirely possible for us to do that. It is entirely possible for us to hold past, to hold present and to hold future. I know this because I’ve seen it. Our ancestors did it, thinking seven generations ahead. What do we need to be doing right now to make what’s next possible and within that love and care to each one of you. Love, love and care. I’m here with you whenever we cross paths again in person, just know that in me, you have someone that’s wholeheartedly committed to your humanity and everything that’s happening in this world, it’s very much present in my life in very intimate ways. And love and care to each one of you. I’m here with you. We’re not alone. That would be my, my, my closing offering.

Ashley Ellis  1:11:12

Thank you for that. I would leave with them and share that… so I would tell the fellows that you are somebody’s Sankofa, you are somebody’s, you will be somebody’s ancestor. So when we talk about seven generations, most times we don’t live to see the seven generations forward. And so what are you willing to do today? As Luis said, to have something different happen seven generations from now, and also like, what are you remembering? Right? What are you remembering to pass forward? What are you needing to reimagine? Right? Because everything that gets passed to us don’t need to get passed down. Sometimes we have to reimagine something different. And what are you restory-ing? Right? Just because you get a story doesn’t mean that it has to stay the same. And so what are you and how are you rewriting a different narrative? Right? That’s your responsibility. And I think about the words of our now ancestor, Assata Shakur, when she talks about revolutionist love, and I’ll leave this with the fellows. “We need a revolution of the mind. We need a revolution of the heart. We need a revolution of the spirit. The power of the people is stronger than any weapon. A people’s revolution can’t be stopped. We need to be weapons of mass construction. Weapons of mass love. It’s not enough just to change the system, we need to change ourselves. We have got to make this world user friendly, user friendly. Ashe.

Krystal Lee  1:13:44

Thank you so much to you both for sharing your experience, your stories, sharing with us some critical lessons for the times that we’re experiencing right now. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for your kindness and your generosity. Thank you for everything that you have done to you know, make the world a better place for seven generations hence. We are so deeply grateful for your time and for your work with us. So thank you for being with us today. Thank you for the reminder that the future is not just something that we enter. It is something that we are creating, and that we create one story and one relationship at a time.

And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Promising Practices for Health Equity. If you enjoyed this episode and you’d like to help support the podcast, please share it with a friend, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Links and resources discussed are going to be available in our show notes. That’s all for this episode. Thank you again for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care.

Mandy LeBreche  1:15:02

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation.

Promising Practices Season 3 Prologue

Season 3, Prologue | January 15, 2026

Speakers: J. Robin Moon, Mandy LeBreche, Cody Cotton, Krystal Lee

Krystal Lee  00:00

Hello and welcome to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL, where we explore innovative and actionable strategies to meaningfully advance health equity. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and I’m joined by my phenomenal colleagues and co-hosts J. Robin Moon, Mandy LaBreche and Cody Cotton. Hey, friends!

Alright, so we are kicking off season three of the podcast, y’all, it has been such a journey. Can you believe we’re already at season three? And it’s going to be a little bit different than seasons one and two, right? So seasons one and two were heavily interview based. We talked with individuals in season one about things like the creation, the building, the execution of the program itself, IRL. And in season two, we talked with fellows and teams from cohort one all the way up to cohort seven about their projects and about the promising practices that came about from their projects or that they utilized in their projects. Season three is a little bit different. Season three captures our time together at our final IRL Minnesota Leadership Meeting. So today, what I want us to do is just talk about our experience of the final Minnesota meeting, our reflections. Um, but before that, we’re going to do a check in. Cody, what’s our check in question?

Cody Cotton  02:11

Check in question, What feeling are we holding as we are entering our last days together of IRL? What feeling are we holding as we are entering our last few days of IRL?

Krystal Lee  02:30

Are you going to model?

Cody Cotton  02:34

I will model. I have definitely a lot of feelings. One of them will be gratitude, of course, and I would say probably from this meeting, immense hope, a lot of hope from this meeting and being together.

Mandy LeBreche  02:50

You took mine, Cody, I think mine’s gratitude as well, just like gratitude for the whole experience, gratitude to be connected to so many different folks. And yeah, just gratitude for being able to hold space year after year for all these amazing people. And yeah, so I think gratitude, although there’s lots of feelings.

J. Robin Moon 03:18

Yes, all of that, and I’m gonna say pride. I’m so proud of you. I’m so proud of us. We pulled together a leadership elitist what, what is, was an elitist leadership program into something that is kind of unprecedented. And it’s a, it’s a, you know, seven years, nine years, 10 years of process. But we ended, we put the end mark, you know, with that acknowledgement collectively everybody who attended the meeting. So we are here on Saturday, September 27 and the meeting ended yesterday, September 26, 2025 with 100 plus people in the room who collectively, in unison, agree that this was something revolutionary. So I’m proud of us for having created that space for that many leaders who will go change the future.

Krystal Lee  04:31

I told Robin that I actually left my feelings at home – in a suitcase. Lots of practice. It’s okay. I have a therapist. It’s fine. I because it would be very easy for me to just be a puddle. I think there’s only for one puddle, no, but I. I am also feeling pride about what we have been able to accomplish. There have been some significant shifts in the program since I started just over four years ago, and I’m so pleased to see the impact and the results of the work that we have put in. I think it is clear to see that the folks who are involved in the planning and execution of these programs, of the IRL program, at the National Program Center and our various committees, I think it’s clear to see that we are all committed to the work, and we think the work is important, and we are doing this work in very difficult times, but we still keep going. And for me, that’s because I think the work is important, and I think there are many of us who believe the same thing. And so I am grateful, like Cody and Mandy mentioned, for for the community, for this, the opportunity for the personal and professional growth that I’ve experienced over the last four years, and, you know, over the last two days with all the fellows and alum that we brought back together, the NAC, the CAAB everybody who was able to be with us this week. I’m grateful for that community. I am grateful that y’all were so nice to my parents. I brought my parents with me to see the work that I’m proud of. That’s what I told them. I want them to come see the work that I do, that I’m proud of, and the people who make it worth, worth it for me and so, yeah, that’s I’m holding a lot, even though the suitcase is in Baltimore, but I still example, but I scraped some together here. So thank you all for checking in with me – us. So let’s talk reflections.

Krystal Lee  07:55

Yeah, so the IRL, Minnesota Leadership Meeting is one of two in person gatherings, convenings that we have done every year over the last 10 years. Yeah, except during the pandemic. Some years there were three meetings. But for the most part, there’s always been two. And for this time, our theme was Celebrating the Future of our Beloved Community. So we have come to come together over these last 10 years to do this. You know, community oriented action focus. No community to this. Community focused, action oriented, research for health equity, and this time around, we wanted to create space for cross cohort celebration of what we’ve been able to accomplish over the last 10 years, and importantly, make space for collective reflection on IRL’s impact. We again spent some time celebrating the IRL legacy. We had a legacy wall up in the room where folks could, you know, tape things that were representative of the impact that IRL had on them and on their communities, on their work. And we also created space for folks to reflect on their individual and collective IRL experiences. And then we importantly, spent time dreaming and envisioning the future that we were all working towards. And I think you’ll hear a lot of that specifically in our StoryJam, which we will share over two episodes later on this season, just stories and reflections that people that are fellows and some NAC members shared about the future that they are working towards and the world that we want to see. So that’s kind of the overview of what happened this, these last couple days. So let’s hear from you all, what’s your reflections on the final IRL Minnesota meeting?

J. Robin Moon 10:08

Yeah, what is that one thing or one feeling? One learning, anything.

Cody Cotton  10:19

The thing that stood out the most to me was when we come together, we set these curriculums, we set these meetings, we do our best to make it align with the objectives. And we learn so much based upon what was said on the curriculum, what a lot of people did not know, that we will learn a lot about what it means to be in relationship. What does it mean to be how we would say in parenthood, right? You, you take so many things, you learn so many things that’s not directly tied to the curriculum, just learning a lot of things about life. We were able to build these relationships with people. You start to connect about a lot more than just what you came here to connect about. So I think being able to see that growth, not only in leadership, but even the leadership of the fellows, has been amazing, and it really shows how holistic this program is.

Mandy LeBreche  11:26

Yeah, I think just building on what Cody had to say, like, I just think the level of connection is just so beyond my wildest imagination in this program, and being able to, of course, bring cohort seven and then have different folks from cohorts one through six, our alumni cohorts, and I mean, some of these people haven’t seen each other in four or five years, maybe, but just the way that they connect with each other. And I don’t know, I don’t even really have the words, but I mean, people were meeting each other for the first time at this convening. And, you know, walking away with a new friend, a new connection, someone, you know, people are traveling to see each other, and just yeah, the level of connection and just like care that people bring and love that they show to one another is just really remarkable. And I think everyone, no matter what their experience was or is in the IRL program, I think everyone’s just walking away with so many deep connections, both personally and professionally, and yeah, no matter really what your experience was, everyone, in a way, found their people. And I think that’s something really, really special.

J. Robin Moon 13:00

Krystal and I had the privilege to do an opening remark as the co chairs of the meeting, and I said this, and in that remark, thinking about the dissemination, and we’ve come such a long way, Like from research brief, issue brief only to like different kinds of modality. And then the meeting itself was the dissemination product. And it was, it’s not just the outcome of like, the you know, final results of what came out of it, like or like. You know that what academics do so well about the proceedings of the meeting, but the process is a process oriented dissemination, outcome product. So I said it’s something like an installation art and performance art in one so installation art is like, you know, artists in a museum or outside, like the whole process of installing it in and of itself, watching it. The process is the art, and then you have the audience. And performance art is like an installation art, like whereas you know what the outcome should look like, because you have the road map, you build it, performance art is like a participated by the audience, with the artists, and you don’t really know how it’s going to come out. What comes up is what comes out. And I really visualize the entire meeting of the two days. That’s what we were doing. So you mentioned Krystal, legacy wall, and all the story gems you’re going to hear, and some of other gems of conversation. We like didn’t really know what was going to come out, but we we created a space, we installed it together. And it’s like, truly collaborative. Everybody installed it and performed together. So that’s what I think about.

Krystal Lee  15:26

So from a curriculum perspective, my work is done in advance to kind of set a stage, set the stage for what can emerge to Robin’s points. And it’s always nerve wracking for me, to think about like releasing control of to just see what because I just have to see what happens. And for me, the quality of the outcome indicates the quality of the work, and the outcome allows me to figure out what I can do differently or better next time, to influence the outcome right? And the last, Robin and I have had the privilege of co-chairing the last two meetings, and I have been very proud of what has emerged in the spaces. I think that one of the things that Robin says a lot on his podcast is, you know, this was made as a research program, but we can see that the research is only a part of what happens here in the IRL community. Cody mentioned relationships, and a lot of folks talked in these last two days about the importance of relationships in doing the work. And I think it’s easy, from a research perspective to think like the research is the primary, like we have and the end goal and the end goal, right? It’s the thing that’s of the highest importance. And what I think we’ve learned as part of this community is that relationships are actually, some folks might argue, but the relationships, to me, are the more important piece, and the relationships influence how you do the work. So folks talked about needing to pivot in their research projects for whatever reason, COVID, or, you know, unable to get access to their populations or or whatever it is that that happened. And the program allowing them to make those pivots, which folks indicated, is unusual for funders to to allow. And the fact that they were allowed to do that, and they could think about how to do this work differently. I think was an important space that IRL created. And from a curriculum perspective, I’m able to use that to influence how we plan for these convenings, and then just allow it to happen. To Robin’s point about, you know, us creating the art together, and so that’s kind of what I hold from these, specifically, the last two convenings that I’ve had significant input in, is just the beauty of what comes from the planning. Once I release it, I just allow it to be what it is. Allow it to be what it’s going to be. And there’s so much beauty in that, you know, some things can be planned very rigidly, and some things are just best if you just allow them to be. And I think that’s what has that’s a lesson that I have learned over these last few years working with IRL, and that will continue to influence my work. So let’s you know wrap up with thinking about the closing prompts that you offered for the fellows yesterday. Cody tell us what it is, and then we will,

J. Robin Moon 19:03

we will tell us about the closing ceremony. Closing Ceremony, our channeling, our restorative practice. It was beautiful…

Cody Cotton  19:11

Appreciate that. So for our closing ceremony, we wanted to have each one of the fellows, as well as everyone in the room really acknowledge what they were feeling at the time, whether it was big, whether it was small, and then we took a moment to close our eyes and visualize, what would that feature headline say for the newspaper? What would the future headline say from the impact of your research? What would a community member’s testimony be to you, or what would a loved one, a family member probably say to you once your dream comes into fruition? And it was a space that we held together. We took deep breaths, we acknowledged it, we held the feeling, and we got a chance to share it across the room and it was beautiful, and we heard different things, but I think the thing that was most important was it was a vision of the future, and more importantly than anything, is also a possibility.

J. Robin Moon 20:16

And what did you say? What was your headline?

Cody Cotton  20:19

My headline was, “Daddy, I’m proud of you.”

J. Robin Moon 20:24

Say more…

Cody Cotton  20:28

Well, that was my headline, because when I when we first discussed about doing the the wrap up and the closing ceremony, everything resonated. And when I thought about the headline from a research paper and the impact that was created by it. I thought, “Man, that’s important”. I think, to some people, more than anything, it might be the what your people closest to you say, it might be what your family said, and a lot of the work that we do, you know, we each have our reasons, our motivations for why, the big reason for why I do what I do is my family. And the moment I’ve always felt the most proudest has been when my kids tell me they’re proud of me, and when they recognize and they see the work that Daddy does, and they might not understand it now, but that’s a beautiful thing in the future, for them to be able to say they’re proud of me, it means that they get they get clarity of what we do and the importance of how it’s literally shaping the future country that they live in today.

J. Robin Moon 21:36

What do you say? Mandy,

Mandy LeBreche  21:37

Well, I wasn’t in the room, maybe because I was still just recovering from the high of my big performance. You all sing it right now. Oh, I don’t know. I got a frog in my throat. Yeah. No, we can save it. You can save it for save it for the episode in Season Three. Um, but I think my headline would be, I’ve been really fixated on restorative justice lately, um. So I think my headline would be something like, like, ‘restorative justice practices, taught in schools across America’. And just how amazing. I think that would be, like, I don’t know, as someone in my 40s who came into restorative justice, just, I don’t know when we started working with Ashley two, two and a half years ago, not even, maybe not even two and a half. Just like, what a profound impact it’s had on me, personally and professionally, and just what a benefit I think it would be for folks to learn about it and start practicing it at a younger age, you know, like, I wish I had some of these skills, you know, growing up when I was younger. But yeah, just so many things and just, you know, just really putting into words and practice how everything is just really rooted in relationships. And, yeah, I’m just so grateful to have experienced that towards the end of the program, and love that it was just one of the pivots that we made, along with storytelling with Luis and restorative justice practices with Ashley and I just think there’s a lot to take away from it.

J. Robin Moon 23:31

For the context listeners, we had a two hour long straight through of our StoryJam of 21 people. We actually exceeded a number of slots, 21 people telling their stories, and I did not want to miss a single word, so I was holding from going to the bathroom. So I went to the bathroom, and it took a while, because I was holding a lot of coffee. By the time I made it back to the room, the circle was already happening, and I thought it was actually pretty stunning of a sight to behold, to look at you all from outside the circle. So I didn’t actually and I, but I, I want to share. I want to lift up one of our colleagues and restorative justice committee member, Winnie Lindstrom, who said “I knew we would live like this again”, and that just like hit me in the head, and I just spiritually passed out. I really hope I can hope for our next generations. It might not be in my lifetime. The prompt was about five years from now, but let’s say, after I’m not here, I really hope we will see a headline like that for our next generation, for Mandy, your children, Cody, your children. And bless Winnie.

Krystal Lee  25:02

Robin and I had the same experience. We both kind of stood outside the circle and just watched again, watched it unfold, right? I Cody had led, led the group in, like, taking a series of deep breaths, you know, giving them little prompts to think about in between these deep breaths, right? And, yeah, and it was just, it was beautiful to watch. And I also had the same experience of as Robin, when Winnie said, “I knew he would live like this again”. I felt it in my spirit. I felt it in my stomach. I felt it in my chest like it was everywhere. Um, and I have learned so much from Winnie over the last four years. I’m so grateful that she has been part of the team and, you know, and speaks up. And so I’m super grateful for that. But, yeah, that was really what hit me. I mean, we would live like this again, and I’m, you know, trying to learn more about what “this”, what that “this” is in terms of, you know, native practices and approaches to life and living, and you know, just being together in ways that celebrate each other and, you know, hold each other in ways that are not exploitative, and you know, just that I’m looking forward to a different way of being. And that was just some she her her statement really summed that up for me, um, and then I also think that another takeaway for me was just the community that we’ve built together as a larger IRL family, and then also as a National Program Center, and then even us as a podcast team, has really given me solid ideas of what community can look like, and gives me a template to follow and adapt in other areas of my life, in terms of creating community for myself and how I can support others and be for others, what this community has been for me.

Cody Cotton  27:33

So I want to speak on that. Definitely shout out to Winnie, and I just thought about how we all model what it was like to come together in community, even from an NPC and a RJ perspective, because again, for the closing ceremony, shout out Taylor and shout out the whole RJ team. Ashley Ellis, that was a combined effort.

J. Robin Moon 27:58

She couldn’t make it with all kinds of travel snafu, and then we said…

Cody Cotton  28:05

No, we’ll figure it out. We’ll get it done. And it was a combined effort. And again, I led the closing ceremony. I was in front. It was a whole team behind me in order to make that happen. And I felt that it is such a beautiful way, and it was our last moment together as a group. And again, it’s the shared experience that we all had an ability to do that together as a group, as a community, and that was powerful.

J. Robin Moon 28:33

We got what we need for the you know, for the work for the future. Can you read off our restorative justice community members’ names? Just to honor them. So it’s all for all of us. Mandy, Cody, Krystal, Robin and Miss Bob-e Simpson Epps, Ifrah Biyoow, Taylor Dunlap, who really helped design the closing ceremony. Thank you, Taylor. And Winnie Lindstrom, Zinzi Bailey, Kathleen Call and lastly, our coach, forever, Ashley Ellis.

Krystal Lee  29:11

Ashley… Breathe Circles. Breathe Collective!!!

Krystal Lee  29:25

Thank you all for sharing and reflecting with us, and thank you, Cody, for that wrap up question from yesterday, and allowing us to use it again today. Thank you, friends, for this journey that we’ve been on. I’m so excited to see Season Three unfold and get people’s feedback on it. So thank you. Thank you for your work on this project with me. And thank you to our listeners, listeners, we would love to hear from you. This is the wrong script. Hold on now.

Krystal Lee  30:15

Oh, yeah, no, it was the right script. Okay. Thank you all, and thank you to our listeners. We would love to hear from you about the promising practices that you are doing in your work to achieve health and other kinds of equity. Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts and leave questions for the team, and don’t forget to subscribe to promising practices for health equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for joining us on this journey where every step we take brings us closer to a healthier, more just world, Until next time. Take care. The end.

J. Robin Moon 31:00

Alright.