Season 2: Promising Practices for Health Equity Podcast

Season 2 Reflections and Recap

Season 2, Epilogue | January 5, 2026

Speakers: Mandy LeBreche, Krystal Lee, J. Robin Moon

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcasts brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and today I have the pleasure of talking with my co host, Dr. J. Robin Moon, who is the Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL, hey Robin.

J. Robin Moon 00:47

Hi Krystal, great to be here with you alone.

Krystal Lee  00:51

This one is going to be a good one, because what we’re doing today is reflecting on the conversations that we have had with our fellows and alumni about the promising practices that have emerged from their work on their IRL projects. So I’m super excited to hear your insights and to share my own. And we would also love to hear from our listeners about the things that they have taken away from our podcast over the last couple of seasons. So how about we get started with our own promising practice, Robin, of our check in what’s our check in question?

J. Robin Moon 01:32

Our check in question is, when was the last time or a recent memory where somebody gave you gratitude. Somebody thanked you for something. I was sharing with you earlier that you know, giving gratitude to something and other people is super important, but also what really keeps us mentally fulfilled and healthy is to hear others thank you. It’s a very interesting insight for me. I didn’t really think about it.  So I so I am, usually that voice in new strategy meetings or whatever. I am the one who says, “No, that’s not going to work”. And I think… I hope I’m getting better. I’ve been getting better over time to say it nicely, say it differently and more asset based. Just recently, one of my colleagues thanked me for being that voice, which is not necessarily always comfortable. It’s it’s true, it’s not comfortable that I would voice it anyway with grace and positivity so that really, because I’m always self conscious when I when I do voice and I voice it anyway, because I have a strong personality, but I always second guess myself and like, “did I say? Like, how maybe I should have said it differently”, but that person thanked me for it, and that really reassured me or for my usefulness. Yes, yeah. How about you?

Krystal Lee  03:00

I actually have a really, a very recent example. I had a birthday recently.

03:04

Happy birthday.

Krystal Lee  03:08

One of my very close friends sends me a text message. That was paragraphs and paragraphs.

J. Robin Moon 03:14

Love getting those…

Krystal Lee  03:17

I’m not going to read the whole thing, because then I’ll probably just cry. But it was a really beautiful acknowledgement of the results of the personal journey that I’ve been on over the last few years. I have been really intentional about being reflective, and, you know, trying to be, trying to be the change I hope to see in the world. I have been really influenced by our work in IRL on restorative justice practices and my own work on anti oppressive principles. And Shawn Ginwright book The Four Pivots, and thinking about like, what is the world? How do I want the world to be? And recognizing that I have to be an example of that. I have to start behaving as if that world already exists. And so what does that mean for how I show up, how I do things, how I the expectations that I have for myself and for others and so on? And so I’ve just been on this personal journey, just working, you know, on myself, with myself, sharing what I can when I can. And her message to me was one that was really acknowledging the work, the impacts or the results of that work that I’ve been doing with myself. One of the things that she says is “…the journey within yourself that and that you have shared has been a gift to everyone around you, especially me”. And that was such a beautiful sentiment in and of itself, but it really landed with me, because it has been a very hard journey to be different than I have been trained the last several decades of my life. It has been quite a shift, and it has not been easy, and it has been there’s been moments of friction within myself and then with others. And you know, who expect me to be a certain way because of how I’ve been in the past, and so it was just, you know, without getting into too much of it, I was really grateful for the acknowledgement that the work that I am doing in trying to be a better person is being reflected in the way that I’m showing up with my my friends and my family and my community. So that was super helpful. Thanks for that question, Robin. That was got me

J. Robin Moon 05:36

You must feel very seen, 100% and then she by you, 100% 100% let’s do it again, another time.

Krystal Lee  05:57

Yeah, so let’s, how about we? Ian, thank you for sharing your your reflection as well. Um, let’s jump into the conversation thinking about season two being an exploration of the promising practices that have emerged from our fellows and alumni research projects. Tell me what you think, what has been like a primary or major takeaway for you from season two?

J. Robin Moon 06:26

Yeah, thank you the season two. Every episode, I feel like we heard the same confirmatory statement and call out like a call to action for our communities, which was remarkable, and we’ve been saying sort of the same thing since season one, which is, relationship is everything. Nothing, nothing will move forward, nothing will stick, nothing will stay around without having built the relationship, time and again. So that was pretty remarkable. And I know that within IRL, we’ve I’m not the only one, but I certainly have said this a lot, which is, you know… “Our work can only move at the speed of trust.” And now, almost every episode, somebody says it. So it just, like, really helpful and resounding and confirming to be in this community and hear that over and over again. And like, this is they’re telling us, this is how it works. This is how you make something grow. It’s from, like, if you are, you’re a gardener, and, you know, I am, too to an extent, like, we know, when we do experimentation with growing something, we know, “oh, this is working, and that’s not working”. Like, I feel like that’s, that’s what we’re hearing. And we’re hearing what the evidence based world would call, like, you know, repeatability and then generalizability. So it’s the relationship, and, that’s one, and the other piece is just intentional, putting the community first, community first. Center the community, community first. They come first. And these are not from what we know, these are these from whatever the societal trends and expectations that’s not the default, the default of our community, this society is a merit based merit, a very specific kind of merits, right, like a school degrees, a number or amount of grant that you’ve gotten, or number of years of whatever experience, but no community. So that’s the default. But like, what we heard is going against the grain to put the community in the center and in the lead. That’s what works. Is what I think we heard from every episode’s guest, so I’ll stop there and see if you agree to that.

Krystal Lee  09:07

Yeah, no, I definitely agree that the overarching themes of this season have been primarily the importance of relationship, of community and of trust. I agree with you those three things have really been clear to me as kind of an outsider to the research world. It’s actually a unique perspective based on my experience, you know, in my doc program and all the, you know, academic engagements that I’ve had, and I work at a university, so it’s, you know, we hear about community engaged research and so on. But I have heard about community engaged research differently from our fellows.

J. Robin Moon 09:48

And what have you heard from like before? What is a community and what have you heard from our fellows?

Krystal Lee  09:55

Yeah, so my understanding of community engaged research prior to this was like, you just do the research in the community. You want to learn about the community, you go to the community, you get the information. You do the surveys. You may do a focus group, if you’re a qualitative minded or interviews or whatever, but it’s always been like with a priority, with the priority being on the research and the information that is gathered. And one of the terms that I learned through my IRL work is about, like extractive research, and that’s generally, you know, the kind of research that I’ve that I’ve, you know, been, yeah. That’s like the default yeah that I’ve been exposed to prior to my IRL work, but with the fellows and teams in IRL, and especially the ones that we’ve talked to, generally across the IRL cohorts, we’ve really seen, I have seen that community engaged research can be done in ways that, to your point, truly, center community and take the lead from community. I think back often to the conversation that we had with Team ATL Grove Park, where, you know, the fellows talked about how it’s easier, Erin, specifically said it’s, it’s, it’s actually probably a better practice to teach a community member how to do the research project, than it would be for them, as the researchers to be taught how to be part of this community. There’s just, it’s just never going to happen within the limitations of a research study and a research project. And you know when, when she said it, it makes perfect sense, but I don’t know why, that’s the first time I’ve heard it put that way. And so, yeah, so that’s just one example of, you know, the difference in my understanding of research that prioritizes the community, yeah, and how it can be done.

J. Robin Moon 11:51

Yeah, I think that that’s, I’m gonna guess from you know, the communities that I’m part of, and from the years of experience. I think that’s probably how everybody would see. Your prior knowledge of, you know, community research, and how, oh, like, this can be, not only can it be done this way, but this is a better way. This is, you know, this is a promising practice. Is what we heard, I think. And like when you do that, you know, Team Hawaii, Team St Louis, actually, all the teams told us that the issue that they want to work on, the community’s issue they want to improve. They knew. They know better. It’s not something that the researchers from outside bring in, as I this is what you should work on. And this is, by the way, also what my research grant approves me to do, right? They know and that, like the true meaning of sustainability, because sustainability of what the object the sustainability is the you know, question here that, like a community sustainability in health and culture of health, they know, and I think that we’ve heard loud and clear. And like the podcast guests are the confined group of people that are listeners here, but we also heard from many more teams in person and otherwise right within IRL that is what you know, what makes it work. So that was really consistent in my learning through season two.

Krystal Lee  13:32

Yeah, I also, I also for myself, like one of the things that I was looking forward to from season two was to see a different way of doing research right, to find out what have our teams been doing, and how can that inform how we do things differently moving forward? So I wonder if you are willing to share what your thoughts are about, like the impact of the of the season two of the podcast, and how you see it’s, what are the implications for you know, what we’ve discussed these last few episodes?

J. Robin Moon 14:09

Yeah, really important question. You know, we’ve mentioned this to our listeners before, but I will repeat that our podcast is a project, one of the ambitious projects that National Program Center of IRL has embarked on as part of our tenure, learning dissemination. So podcast is one we have other written, published, publishing products coming out, and other audio, visual products coming up. So this is really to like, it’s called promising practices that is the name of our podcast. We wanted to know what we can contribute to the community of evidence based, if you will, in public health, the promising practices.

The implication is, and we said this in earlier episodes, also, like, we haven’t heard a single mentioning of a methodology or standard error, odd ratio, you know, like the likelihood of, like, you know, whatever the sample size, like those research-ey terminologies, and how they might define the success and promise of their work through those terms, which is like, kind of astonishing to me, if you think about it. Because what I mean, we had our fellows who are like good two thirds of our fellows are researchers. They like, as in academic researchers whose success has been defined for them. Those numbers quantifiable, you know, those number things are, how you how you get assessed for, you know, being a successful researcher.  They have not mentioned a single word you know, such as those you know, research-ey terms. So to me, that’s pretty astonishing, and that also made me wonder, okay, so all these published articles and what we call evidence based, like, strong evidence or what, what not, like, none of these talk about relationships. You know, if it’s really the most important foundational thing that we heard, without exception, as a promising practice, why is it so hard to find in the existing evidence base that that is a must, like a key ingredient? If you’re going to make key lime pie, you need to have lime like, that kind of thing, like, you know, the necessary ingredient. So I really feel so proud that we have this podcast to share with the world to like, to contribute to shifting the narrative. This is actually important, like you might our mental models in our western and elitist you know, of which I’m part, world would say like, these are the things you need to have for successful community research or research in general. We’re saying, no, actually, that is not what we’re hearing here. Here we are trying to shift that mental model. To me, it goes back to changing the mental model, and I think that we contribute that way.

Krystal Lee  17:18

Yeah, I agree 100% I really do, very often go back to the lessons, some of the lessons that I’ve learned from Luis Ortega of Storytellers for Change, specifically around how systems are built and how they’re based on mental models, and that mental models come about as a result of narratives that are built on stories that are told over and over and over again, right? And so there is a story that has been told and structures that have been built upon research that is defined in the way that we always hear about research, right? Yeah, letters are important. Yes, the stories are fine, but we really want it to be quantifiable.

J. Robin Moon 17:58

Stories are cute. Yeah, they’re cute,

Krystal Lee  18:02

but is it really research? And the answer is yes, it actually. It actually can be, you know, solid, like you said, generalized, like well, well conducted, usable research, impactful research, giving folks the opportunity to tell their stories from a place of relationship and community, you know, going in with a lens to really do what the community needs, as opposed to get what you need from the community, and then go about your business once the funding source is done. You know, I think we have really highlighted a different way that research can be done. And I think, to your point, our next step, and one of the things we’re trying to do with this podcast, is to highlight those stories, right, and to kind of set up an example t that other folks can follow, to shift their practice, to shift their research practice to ways to approaches that prioritize and center relationship, community and trust. And I think that if that’s the only thing that comes of this podcast, I will consider it to be a win.

J. Robin Moon 19:13

And I hope that yes, and I hope that our listeners include policymakers and funders, you know, in the way that they, or you listeners, think about, you know, what’s the most impact I can make with the amount of money they were giving? How would you measure that? How do you measure, you know, the impact for, you know, from a program like this? And also think about how I think that there’s, there’s a mistake that gets made sometimes in thinking about systems, thinking like it has to be all about systems. It’s not individual, not lifestyle. You know, when we talk about nutrition, for example, it’s not lifestyle, but it’s the system like, one does not happen without the other. So when we make system change, oh, like a leaders or the fellows from IRL have experienced this thing, it’s like a leadership development program. It like, but that’s like, okay, but that impact is not big enough for the money or the investment that we made., for example. We also learned that to change, to transform the world, we got to transform ourselves. And that is what we see happen, not yes, absolutely, through our fellows, but also within the community members. That’s part of the research process. That’s why it’s called community engaged research, not secondary data analysis, so that part the impact that can grow from individual transformation into the community, that’s also what we see, and that’s also something that we that can change existing mental models. And I really hope that policymakers and funders and others who can help shape the landscape of community research would consider that.

Krystal Lee  21:13

Wow, lots of things to think about, to think about in terms of how we do how we do this work differently. One of the things that we talked about in our work with Practical Radicals and Shawn Ginwright’s book called Four Pivots [thanks], is about the importance of having a vision, right, for how you want to be. It’s one thing to dismantle and unpack and, you know, be anti-whatever. But even if we achieve all of the like ‘undoing’, what do we what are we moving towards? What do we create afterwards? So I think it’s important for us to spend time, while we are unpacking and unraveling these systems that don’t work for us, to also create a vision for what the world can be, for what research can be, for how research can be done. And I think that the lessons that we’ve taken from season two, the promising practices that have been shared by our fellows do, for me, create a new way of seeing how research can be, can be done, can be executed, and how communities can be prioritized in the process. And so I think that if we take stock of what has been shared this last season, we will have a pretty good picture of how things can be different. I wonder, though, how do we then promote or amplify the work? Right? How do we promote and amplify the voices that, to your point Robin, have always existed, maybe we just haven’t been hearing them. Haven’t been listening you know, Luis says that there are no untold stories. They’re just stories that we haven’t necessarily heard. And so I wonder what you would say about how we are amplifying, or move forward to continue to amplify the lessons that we’ve taken from season two.

J. Robin Moon 23:23

Well, that’s our that’s my personal role, professionally and personally, they’re not really separate. And as specifically for this podcast as well, we are the co-hosts. We bring, we amplify the voices. And I that’s sort of a preview of season three. So we’re gonna go talk and visualize what the future could look like, you know, with the promising practices that we have learned from, right? And it’s, you know, the whole neuroscience manifesting. I might be in that world I hear all the time, and I certainly try to visualize but one of the first steps is to visualize yourself. Not only just think about it, but visualize yourself as if you already achieved whatever it is you wanted to achieve. Like, yeah, I want to be a billionaire, billionaire, or I want to become whatever medical doctor I don’t but I’m just saying, like, what does that feel like, you know, like what? And what are you thinking about in that? Like that, like that. You are actually individual. I think that this works exactly the same way, like what you’re talking like, not just anti this and that, getting rid of these bad things, but like, when we go into this, the future that we want, what does that look like? What does that feel like? You know, who’s in it? What does it smell like? You know, all of that, I think that we are going to bring that in season three through a lot of the things we’ve already done with our fellows, and audio, visual, multimedia, all kinds of things. So, yeah, so my role, back to my role that’s amplifying that is the connector role I personally feel so privileged to play. To bring this stories that might or might not have heard of all these voices we amplify so loud and clear into the season three and beyond.

Krystal Lee  25:13

Yeah. I think the points you made earlier about transforming the world by transforming ourselves, that’s a

J. Robin Moon 25:19

Grace Lee Boggs, by the way, …

Krystal Lee  25:25

Amplifying Grace Lee Boggs words that sentiment really connects with me, because I think the way that I am trying to change the world and create the world that I want to see is by being the way that I want people to be. So as you know, I’m an eldest child. I’m an eldest daughter of an immigrant family, and it has been one of the identities that has been salient in my life, across my life, to be an example for my younger siblings, and I have lots of practice in that, and, you know, that’s what I that’s that’s how I connect with the work that we’re doing here, is to try to figure it out for myself and then be that example. And, you know, to the point of your question earlier, which is serendipitous that you asked that question, like, for my friend to be able to see the impact, or, yeah, to see the impact of the work that I’m doing, even though we’re not necessarily talking about it regularly proves to me that it’s working. You know, me being one person trying to demonstrate, or trying to just live the life that I think is, you know, a way of or to be, the way that I think people should be in order to change the world and for it to be noticed, I think, is step one. It’s a small step, but it’s a step in the right direction. Because what I hope then is that, you know, you see me doing things differently, maybe you try something different as well. And I’m hopeful that all the folks who are involved in community, engaged research in whatever way, can see our IRL fellows and these projects and the lessons that we’ve learned, the promising practices, can see them as examples and try them. You know, try whatever will work for your project and and push and make the argument that we can do things differently, and the work can still be good. It can also be better if we again prioritize what we think is important, and for me that’s relationship, community and trust, as we’ve talked about in this context,

J. Robin Moon 27:46

Be the change you want to see in the world. Mahatma Gandhi, well, not exactly those words, but he said that, yeah…

Krystal Lee  27:53

Yeah. I think it’s easy for people to throw the words around. I think it would serve us

J. Robin Moon 27:58

like really, to embody it…

Krystal Lee  28:01

Yes, to do some reflection and try to embody that. I think otherwise, it’s just things, something that we say that makes it look like we’re doing the work, but we’re not actually, you know, and I think that can be dangerous. So we have to be careful. We have to be careful about how we’re doing.

J. Robin Moon 28:16

There’s also this theory called Social Yeast Theory. It’s a thing. We will include that in the podcast notes. And I’m a baker, so I know, like, let’s say there’s like 1000 grams of dough, sourdough starter, starter, or yeast, is like, yeast is actually even less, because it’s chemical. But sourdough starter would be like 100 like, what? 10% not even then what happens? Right? You make the whole so this podcast and IRL community, centralizing the community and prioritizing relationship building. Let that be the yeast for the bread we’re trying to bake together, and that will change the mental model of our community. That’s my hope.

Krystal Lee  29:04

Nice analogy, phenomenal. So let’s wrap up this conversation in the way we’ve wrapped up all our other conversations. How are you engaging in self care as you travel this journey?

J. Robin Moon 29:21

Yeah, I’ve been traveling a lot and internationally, and I I’m not done yet, and I’m at menopause, so sleep is already a big risk to my health, so I prioritize my sleep. Yeah, there is really nothing I wouldn’t do to actually keep my sleep hygiene. And luckily, it’s been working, and it still takes me, like it used to take hours for me to get over, like jet lag or whatever, soreness or whatever, it took days and now it takes weeks, and it’s going to take months. So the sleep is really important. It still takes time, but I’m really, really loving my sleep time. Yeah, that’s that’s a big, big ingredient for my health. How about you?

Krystal Lee  30:16

Awesome. Well, you know, I do have my challenges with sleep as well, but I think for me, the thing that I’m working on now is setting and maintaining boundaries. And that’s not, not necessarily something that I, you know, really just owned recently, is the boundaries are not actually for others, the boundaries are for myself. What am I saying yes to? You know… how clear am I being in my ‘yes’ and my ‘no’, acknowledging that ‘no’ is a complete sentence, and I don’t really owe anybody any explanations. And you know, I say that with respect. It’s not you know, but I, you know, to transform the world, I have to transform myself, and I have to learn to be different. A burned out Krystal is no good to anybody, and I really am trying my best to protect my peace and to, you know, set boundaries that are clear, mostly to myself, so that I can clarify for others you know, what my expectations are about how we’re going to engage with each other. And it’s hard for me, as a people pleaser, and as, like I mentioned before, an eldest daughter and somebody who’s used to being the person that people call. And folks are going to start hearing ‘no’ much more often. And, you know, as soon as I get used to get used to it for myself, I think it’s, I actually think it’s good practice to care for yourself. It enables you to do more for others, or be more effective in whatever it is that you’re trying to do.

And thank you to our listeners. We are so grateful that you have been with us on this journey. Thank you to our guests, for sharing your incredible insights with us. We want this to be a two way conversation. We would love to hear from you listeners, what promising practices have been impactful for your work? What promising practices have you learned more about since we started this podcast, since you’ve been listening to this podcast? What promising practices have you been using, or ones that you will try to use in the future? I’m so curious to hear what is your vision for the future. Share all of those things with us via our LinkedIn page, where we will also share our show notes and the resources that we discuss in each episode. And don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so that you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks again for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time,take care.

J. Robin Moon 34:07

We’ll see you in season three.

Krystal Lee 34:10

We’ll see you in season three.

Mandy LeBreche  34:18

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation. You Ian.

Relationship, Community, and Trust (Team Kansas City: Cohort 2)

Season 2, Episode 10 | December 19, 2025

Speakers: Mandy LeBreche, Krystal Lee, J. Robin Moon, Dawn Townsend, DT, Dr. Brianna Woods

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:19

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I am your host, Krystal Lee, and my co host is the inimitable J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey, Robin!

J. Robin Moon 00:39

Hi partner.

Krystal Lee  00:43

Well, Robin, as you know, this season of Promising Practices, we are exploring the experiences, stories and the lessons learned by our fellows, alumni and their partners. Today, we are so pleased to have Dr. Brianna Woods-Jaeger from Cohort Two, Team Kansas City and her current collaborators, Dawn Townsend and Derek Townsend. Hello, friends. Thank you so much for joining us.

J. Robin Moon 01:11

We’re so glad to have you here with us today. Before we ask you to tell us about yourselves in your work, we invite you to engage with us in one of our signature, IRL promising practices, checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships has been key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So at the beginning of our internal meetings, we do a quick check in to help us continually build connections in our beloved community. So we will do that here. Our check in question today for you, this is all a surprise for the audience. If you could share one insight with your younger self, what would that be? I would just thinking about this morning, not because it’s podcast, but just thinking about, like, if I were to write a book, what would be the title of this book? And it’s going to be “Note to self”, I think something, something like that. And I have so many, and I’ve shared some others, but today I will say this is a hard thing. Sounds simple, like, really, know what makes you roll and what makes you tick and what you’re not about. So like, save yourself, save myself from headaches of, you know, climbing something that is really not meant for me, and beating myself up for not, you know, being happy or not getting it, or, you know, variations of that. I will toss it to Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:40

Yes, Thanks, Robin. This question is always, so it’s always, it forces me inward, right? And one of the things that really came up for me this week is I wish I had been able to acknowledge earlier on in my life that things will generally be okay. We just have to wait. I just have to wait to see what okay looks like. So there’s no way to predict the future, but everything’s going to be okay. Whatever it is, it’s going to be okay. “What does okay look like?” Is the only, is the only question, and being able to kind of rest in that and, you know, feel hopeful as a result of that perspective is something that has come along with age and time and drama and trauma and therapy and all of these things. But that’s one insight that I would share with my younger self. Dawn, how about how about you?

Dawn Townsend  03:37

Yeah, this is so this is such a great question, and I love this promising practice. So DT and I do this in all of our groups and all of our sessions. So we love the foundation of this. Yes, very much so Krystal, very much. So I would tell my younger self, “it gets greater, later”. And that is something that’s a phrase that I you know, that my wonderful husband has coined and helped me really understand and to your point, Krystal  like just from trauma and the things that happened in childhood and adolescence, it has really allowed me to kind of get a clearer focus and a clearer lens, and even knowing that I went through all of those things in my childhood, that it wasn’t in vain, right, like because of the work that I do now, so I’m able to help others. So this is my later, and it has gotten much greater. I will let me popcorn. It let me popcorn it to DT.

DT  04:34

Good afternoon, everybody. I would say this is a very, very tough question, because I talk to my younger self a lot, but I would say two things, “poverty is not a lifetime sentence. You can rise above your circumstances”. I grew up in a high crime, low income neighborhood, and then the other message that I would tell myself is to “be patient. You might have done what they said you did, but you’re not who they say you are”. So just being. Able to believe in myself despite circumstances, whether people are celebrating you or putting you down. It’s very important for you to know who you are, where you are, where you’re going, and how to get there. So I would just be more patient with my younger self, and I’ll pop corn it to Dr Brianna.

Dr. Brianna Woods  05:18

thank you. Yeah, this is such a great question, and it’s so great to hear you all’s response to that, and we’ve talked about this before. So I would say, for me, I think it would really be just encouragement to my younger self “just be you”. Like I am a little bit of a people pleaser. And I love, you know, I love to connect, and so I want to be in relationship. I want… And so I think there’s like, periods of time where I really tried to fit in or be what people wanted or expected me to be. And I think as the journey has continued, I’ve really learned that like the most powerful way I can show up is just as myself. And there’s plenty of people that fully embrace and will accept that. So I think I would tell my younger self, “be you, you know, and stay on the journey”. And Krystal  to your point, “there’s going to be things that happen you can’t control, and there may be times where you do get rejected or hurt and it’s okay, like you keep going, keep being you”. And so, yeah, I think I would tell myself that

Krystal Lee  06:20

So how about we jump right in and let me ask each of you. We’ll start with DT to tell our listeners about yourself, and then you can popcorn it to one of your teammates.

DT  06:36

I would say I have been blessed to be able to be a world leader when it comes to reducing violence and building community resiliency models. I’ve been doing this work over 20 years, and I say blessed because we worked with close to 5000 families in that timeframe. And this work does get daunting. It gets hard, sometimes it gets cold, it gets lonely, but I am a person that believes that we are stronger when we move from silos to solidarity. So our great partnerships have allowed us to be able to sustain in the work. I get to work with my best friend and my boss, who is Dawn and it’s a beautiful thing, because a lot of the work that we do at Hopeful Change. We lead with love. We wanted to create a program that combined culturally competent mentoring and mental health services and supports, because through our work, we had identified that those were the two major pillars that were missing when we look at strengthening and sustaining the population that we were working with in the communities, being able to provide mentorship and leadership to youth and families is very important. What’s more important than having knowledge is knowing what to do with that knowledge and those skills, and then just the mental health and the black and brown communities that we serve. Primarily mental health has been a stigma and still continues to be taboo in some spaces. So I have enjoyed this journey just being able to make a difference. When I look at the work that we do, we often get to see the fruits of our labor, but we also are hit with the harsh reality of why we do what we do. So that, in itself, allows us to continue to be motivated and continue to be effective in the work. Everything that we do at Hopeful Change is intentional, and we make sure that it’s integrated and intergenerational. So we’re about holistic healing. We’re not just focusing on youth, but we’re focusing on those that are responsible for the youth and those that are impacting the youth, from everyone from the grandmother to the school janitor, so we’re working cohesively. And I would say that I’ve been called a bridge builder. It’s hard to talk about myself, so I talk about it in a way of the work that I’ve done. So when I look at the reflection of our body of work, I’m very pleased and honored and humbled to be chosen as someone to make a difference and provide solutions to very difficult problems that people are dealing with.

DT  09:11

I will toss it to Dawn.

Dawn Townsend  09:18

thanks, DT. I would say, in addition to what DT has already mentioned, I have 18 plus or so years in the field, licensed, right? So, but I’ve been doing this work for a really, really long time. I started out doing this work in Youth Rehabilitation, working in juvenile delinquent facilities, providing tutoring. So I kind of grew up in the services. I am the clinical piece of Hopeful Change in the Hopeful Change project. I am a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia. I’m a nationally certified counselor, and I’m certified in trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy. I talk about those credentials because it’s important because of the work that we do. We feel like trauma is the root cause to many of the barriers and the problems that we see in the youth and the families that we work with, Something that I have been really wholeheartedly focused on, and something that is very important to us at Hopeful Change is combating and dealing with the systems, right? We realize and understand that a lot of the barriers that we have is because we have problems with the systems. So we are really intentional about the way that we help the youth and the families that we’re responsible for, that we care for. And at the basis of everything that we do is just about being a human right, dealing with people with like, basic foundations of human kindness, human love, like care and concern. I feel like that has been lost in our society today, and it goes a long way. A lot of times, people feel like you have to do a lot of things with the families and with the youth, and really it’s just about building that rapport and building those relationships. And you know, we couldn’t do the work that we do at the capacity that we do it without. Dr Brianna, so I am popcorning it to Dr Brianna.

Dr. Brianna Woods  11:05

Hi everyone. I’m Brianna and I’m a mother, I’m a widow, I’m a daughter, I’m a sister, I’m a psychologist and a writer, and I’m a researcher, really committed to community building and health equity. I come from a long line of community builders and connectors, and I was raised by parents who are healers, and I’ve been really blessed to be able to pursue my own calling around healing and community building through partnership and partnership with the great folks here, with Dawnt and DT, partnership with other communities, with young people, with families, and really focusing on how we can come together to really address trauma and chronic stress in our communities, really centering relationships, centering creativity, centering love, like Dawn mentioned, really love and care. And so that that work, and that ability to really use these different practices as a tool for healing and transformation has been an honor, and I bring all of that, you know, all of myself and the work and experiences I’ve had into my my different roles, including my role as an Associate Professor and a Vice Chair and the Department of Behavioral, Social and Health Education Sciences at Emory, and also in my role in my work as a clinical psychologist and how I practice. And so just really fortunate to be on this journey and to have such great partners with me as well.

J. Robin Moon 12:28

Thank you so much. All this question is for Dawn tell us about the community where your work is, where your collaboration is based.

Dawn Townsend  12:36

So we do community work all around Georgia, really our focus with Dr. Brianna is heavily focused on at Emory, so the Atlanta campus, the Rollins school for Public Health, we have done a lot of things in community, just the surrounding areas at Emory, and we have also done peer leadership. We call them peer ambassadors. It’s part of the peer leadership programming that we worked with Emory and Dr Brianna.

Krystal Lee  13:06

Thank you, Brianna, let’s talk a little bit about your IRL experience. The title of your IRL project was “Promoting Resilience among Youth Exposed to Violence”. Tell us briefly about your experience with IRL and the promising practice, or practices that emerged from your team project.

Dr. Brianna Woods  13:28

Yeah. So So my experience with IRL actually has been quite a long experience. So I was, as you mentioned, part of Cohort Two. And so one of the early cohorts, a very dynamic cohort, which I would say has influenced the program quite a bit. And I had a great experience with my team and the project that we worked on. But I also want to mention my continued work with the EDI Task Force, because that’s really been, I would say, for me, the most transformative experience that I’ve had with IRL is really being a part of that group and we, I think just the way that that group works and functions has been so inspiring to me, and also really validating for the way I want to show up in health equity work. And so it’s very relationship centered this dedicated, passionate group, a really diverse group, you know, this collective of folks from all over who have different experiences working together, really united by this commitment to equity and to the power of community and the potential of IRL to really be this transformative program and sort of seed that can continue to grow. And so being a part of that, for you know, the duration, was really powerful. And then my specific project, I think what really has come from that project has been we basically laid a foundation during the journey we had with IRL that’s continued. So as you mentioned, our project was focused on promoting resilience among black youth who are disproportionately exposed to community violence in Kansas City, and unfortunately, that’s the same here in Atlanta. But what we did was really engaging youth as partners and helping us identify, we did a community wide survey, we did focus groups, and really wanted to understand what should be focused on. There’s so much to think about when we think about community violence, we think about prevention, resilience. And what we heard really clearly the two huge priorities. So one was really around mental health resources and supports, and Dawn and DT definitely experts in that, and then the other was really around this intersection between community violence and racism and youth were asking us to really look at that like, Let’s better understand it, let’s address it, and let’s do it together. And so that really informed our journey, our really set a roadmap for us and the work that we’ve continued, both in Kansas City and now what we’re doing here in Atlanta. And I was just so fortunate. I came to Atlanta, didn’t know anybody had this work that I was still doing in Kansas City, and then met Dawn and DT as part of this collective around really addressing gun violence and just that relationship piece was like there from the start, and just feeling so aligned and so much synergy with the work that they’ve been doing for years, and are so expert and so deep in the community. You know me as a newbie coming here, but bringing this kind of experience that I had, and just finding those connections and ways to work together has been just so powerful and and what’s been neat too, to see like these different communities connect right around these shared vision of really healing and hope and opportunity for young people who have been exposed to violence and have so much more to do and live in their life, right? So so my IRL experience was great, and I think it’s just been a seed for so many other great things to come.

J. Robin Moon 16:26

Thank you, Brianna. I’m gonna continue with you follow up question for that. So there are 300 plus fellows and alums from IRL over the seven, you know, cohorts, some, I think a good number of the teams continue working together. Some work with new partners, like you are. Some do not for, you know, a number of reasons, and this is really something that we want to highlight, that you know, a fellow fellow alum has gone on to like, it’s like a different location with different set of partners, and you are continuing the work. We’re very curious to hear about, like, what like lessons you have learned from IRL that you have taken forward to work with Dawn and DT, and maybe, if you can think about like, like a key ingredient, or maybe two, as you carried forward as non-negotiable for this too. You know, for you to have found these people?

Dr. Brianna Woods  17:30

Yeah, I mean, I think so two things come to mind. So one kind of to your question around like continuing the work and expanding partnerships. So I would really say it was an expansion. So I still work with my partners in Kansas City, and we’re continuing that work, and then again, is really built and grown here. And I think with that, one of the I guess, promising practices, or core ingredients, is really this dedication and commitment to the long term. Like, I don’t think this work is something you do in one project. Unfortunately, I think these issues are so complex and multi-layered, they’re not going to be solved, you know, right away, and you really need to be in it for the long haul, right? And with other people that are too. And so like Dawn and DT, what’s so great I think one of the and they can tell you their story, because it’s so how they were self funded for all these years, but that’s part of it. Like we don’t depend on funding, like we depend on commitment and the belief in what we’re doing and the partners that we’re working with, and so being, I’ve been fortunate to find that in multiple places, but I would say from the IRL experience, one of the things that I really took from was that the freedom and the really support that IRL gave around nurturing relationships and being that being the foundation, right? Because that’s what’s going to last past a grant cycle, past the one outcome that you get, you know. And so I think that being so reinforced, because sometimes in my academic spaces that can be questioned, or is that really the priority compared to this then? So it was so great to be part of a community like you said, 300 plus, right? That all really, I think that’s a core belief, you know. And so that really I took with me from IRL. And then the other thing I would just say, really quickly, I know I don’t want to spend too much time, but the one of the things that was really nurtured my experience in IRL, you know, IRL is really about creativity and how that we can do this work and disseminate it. And so storytelling is something I’ve always been passionate about. I’m a qualitative researcher. I love storytelling, but figuring out and finding ways to integrate that more and particularly in our work in violence prevention, which is often framed from very much a deficit narrative, being able to use storytelling to really shift that into more of a community strengths and resistance narrative, and how we can use that as our foundation to prevent violence has been so powerfu.l And so we’ve done Photo Voice, we’ve done short films, and then, you know, Dawn and DT are amazing storytellers, and so then connecting with them and seeing how they weave that into their work, to really amplify the voices and experiences and stories of those that we work with and of ourselves, you know. And so that has been a promising practice that also really taken forward.

J. Robin Moon 20:00

Amazing. Dawn, DT do you have anything to add to the reaction to what Brianna shared.

DT  20:05

I’ll just say that it is very important to be intentional. And one of the things that was important for us when we met with Dr Brianna, her being a world renowned researcher, we had looked at the research that had been done in our communities, and some of the research had been exploitive. So we wanted to be sure, as fidelity keepers and protectors of the community, that exploration did not become exploitation. We understand that data equals dollars. So we wanted to be able to see our work through a different scope. And I think that’s the greatest reward that working with Dr Brianna and Emory and the team that we assembled, because it allowed us to build off the strengths of others. As we are boots on the ground, we are often in the trenches, providing crisis intervention, dealing with the ripple effects of trauma and the after effect and the aftermath of violence. In our work, in the last 15 years, we’ve been a part of burying 79 youth. And when I say youth, those are individuals under the age of 18, our youngest being a six month old, that we had to help facilitate and work with that family and community back in 2023. So when we look at what Dr Brianna is saying, and being able to build out the scope, and being able to move this work forward. I’ll end with saying that our work moves at the speed of trust. So when you look at how can we build sustainable work between communities and academic partners and researchers, there has to be a trust at the core, but then there also has to be that ability to look at the quantitative and qualitative data and tell the full story. I like the fact that Dr Brianna, I mentioned to to the audience, that we were self funded for so many years, and we chose to go that route because that allowed us to own our work and to be able to control the narrative that was being put out about our communities, and that is so essential, but we’ve been able to grow, sustain and build our work and our capacity by being able to see it from a different lens. I think it takes a multitude and a multi layer approach, and you have to have that in collaboration. What is the old saying? You’re only as strong as your weakest link when it comes to defining a team. So I’m happy to be here today. As you can see, I’m surrounded by brilliant people, and that always makes you look better when you’re surrounded by beautiful people and have great minds. So I’m just humble and grateful for the opportunity to work with Dawn and Dr Brianna, because both of them help me to see the need for my role in building and healing communities as a black man. There is not there aren’t a lot of role models in our community, especially when it comes to black male figures. So that is a badge and an honor for some of our youth and some of our families, I am that only father figure that they’ve seen. So that comes with a great responsibility, but it also comes with a great reward. So I’m humbled and grateful to have this opportunity and to be on a journey with wonderful people.

J. Robin Moon 23:08

DT, you’ve said many powerful things just to close out before we move on. You know, self funding. I mean, it sounds very hard, it is hard, but I think for me, that takes so much courage to say no to big money that might often come with a lot of strings attached, and it really takes brave souls who know what you know one needs and what one will not negotiate compromise. So it’s so much more than just like, you know, fundraising that’s difficult. So I hear you, and I’m this is very impressive. Thank you.

Krystal Lee  23:50

I also just want to take a second before we move on to the next question, to just uplift a few things that you all have said since we’ve been together, I’ve been taking notes. One of the things that DT said very early on is about the importance in this work of moving from silos to solidarity. We need some merch. We need that on a t- shirt somewhere. So that’s your next idea. Maybe, I don’t know. And then also, I think, Brianna, I think you were the one who mentioned creating and cultivating a shared vision of healing and hope. We have seen, you know, the importance of creating a shared vision for folks to move towards. And I think I would identify that as a promising practice that I tried to develop in my own life, personally, in my family and in the work that I do is, you know, it’s so easy to talk about and highlight the things that are wrong and the things that we want to change, but I think we do need to spend more time, and I need to spend more time personally, you know, creating the future that I want to work, that I want to exist. And I think that was so powerful for you to bring up from a research perspective, DT, you mentioned the importance of making sure that exploration does not become exploitation. I think that’s a very important point for the context of researchers working together with communities, which obviously IRL thinks is an important approach, and, you know, a good approach, but we do need to be mindful, consistently and continuously mindful of that. And then we also talked about, you also talked about the importance of relationships, connection, community, building bridges, and importantly, moving at the speed of trust. I think those are all really powerful messages that you shared today. And I’m, I’m very grateful that you have that you’ve brought that to us today. So the next question is to talk about, you know, change. So one of the core beliefs of our podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler, when she says, “All that you touch you change, and all that you change changes you”. So tell us about how your work together has changed you and how that has allowed you to impact your community. Dawn. Maybe we’ll start with you

Dawn Townsend  26:08

These are amazing questions and deep questions, right? I would say really and honestly, just having every interaction that I have with a youth, with a family member, whomever it is, I’m really focused on making sure I am in my trauma informed basket, right? We know that in order to create some kind of healing, and like Dr Brianna was talking about, healing and hope, we have to create a safety net for these families and for these children, and the only way to be able to do that is to build trust and rapport with them, and you do that by creating safe environments for them to be able to be vulnerable, for them to be able to express themselves and emote. DT likes to call what I do ‘therapetizing’, right? Because I’m a licensed therapist, and that is the term he coined, and I love it, and I’ve run with it ever since, right? And I tell people like, I don’t do therapy, like you would typically assume that therapy is done where we’re sitting in a room and we’re talking to each other across and, you know, sitting on a couch, I literally every interaction that I have with you, I am assessing, I am trying to figure out, how can I make this experience and this interaction better for this family or for this youth? How can I be a resource? How can I help? Because the honest truth about the work that we do, we don’t know that the interaction that we’re currently having with the youth or family is going to be our last. We don’t have the privilege of knowing or understanding that, so we try to take every opportunity that we have to be of assistance and to be hopeful in our own lives. Right to not just allow them to know that we’re there for them, but to express it in what we’re doing in our own lives, right? To be the example, it’s very hard, in the world in which we live in now, to continuously be a positive example for the youth, right? We have our own hardships, we have our own traumas, we have our own barriers that we’re dealing with, and sometimes can be triggered right in those interactions with other people. So being able to realistically hone your skills and to have a positive interaction with the youth has really been at the center and the forefront of what we do, and it has been aligned so beautifully with Dr Brianna and the work that she has done, because she really promotes having those restorative practices. We cannot do the work that we do and not restore our people. It’s really about making sure that they have sound practices, that they can not only learn but they can implement themselves, that they can go out in their own communities and continue to show it’s like you teach them they have the skill they now can implement for themselves and their families in their own communities. So it’s really about each one teach one, making sure that we’re constantly giving skills, constantly communicating, constantly trying to figure out better ways to be more effective and to sustain what that looks like across the board, and that was the systems talk that I was talking about before. Like, how does this look from a systems approach, systemically, when we are trying to make these differences and make these changes in our communities, how do we have the ripple effect of positivity, and it’s not just negativity, and it’s something that they can hold on to and keep with them.

Dr. Brianna Woods  29:28

I just say something to that, because I just think Dawn, that was so beautiful, and I just want to amplify that. The way that Dawn DT do did do this is like such authenticity. So what they’re what she was just talking about. I mean, Dawn’s doing all that assessment and skill building and all of that, but with such heart and soul that you feel totally seen. I mean, I just like, will sit there and be in their their ether and soaking in the healing power of that, so that authenticity. And she really, like, loves the person she’s talking to. You know, it’s like, genuine. And same with DT. And so I just want to amplify what you said, and just it’s like the how you do that too, you know, the skill that you have and the expertise, and then that, the what you bring and how you show up, I think is so powerful and and like you said, it can be so hard to do this work, day in and day out, and I think that is such a sustaining practice, right? Like for all those around you, definitely helps me. And so I just wanted to give a shout out to that.

DT  30:41

That’s a tough act to follow. Dawn said it so eloquently. I will say this just to add not a but, but a “and also”, it takes a village. We were to a one man, one woman army, a small organization doing big things, and we were a catch all for communities we’ve worked in collectively 24 different communities in Atlanta, and these are communities that are under-resourced, strong social determinants of health and marginalized, if I can say so. So what we realized is that by taking a village, we weren’t able to do everything ourselves. So this work taught us how to diversify, and we found that we were pouring a lot of times from an empty cup. You’re running all day long. You haven’t eaten. You’re doing this work, and it’s taken a toll on you when you look at your own self care. So one of the things that we’ve learned to do in building out the ecosystem is to find people who are of a like mind, who can bring different talents and traits to this work. So we often call it the Avengers. No Copyright Infringement or trademark, but each person brings a special skill set, and it’s important for us to operate in integrity and fidelity, and that has allowed us to provide simple solutions to complex problems. When we look at communities and when we look at violence, it’s not a ‘me’ problem, it’s a ‘we’ problem, people don’t understand until the violence affects them. When we first started this work, you could pinpoint violence in the neighborhoods, you know, your bank head, communities, the bluff, fine city, all of these notorious areas in Atlanta, but now in some of our more fluent areas, crime has began to trickle into those areas as well. And bringing it to a summation, this work has taught us what power looks like and what it looks like when you bring people together and you’re able to diversify the resources, you can do a lot more. So together, we can go further than we can go as we stand apart from each other. So I think that’s what people have to understand. Anything is possible. You know, when we look at some of our youth that come in and they’re facing 40 years in federal prison, and they go through our program, a two year program, and then they’re able to, four years later, graduate. So we have real life success stories where we’ve been able to make a difference in real time. And I think that’s what’s important. Sometimes the ways that we go about it are antiquated, and we have to make sure that we are using, I mean, we have AI, so we have to make sure we’re not using typewriter set skills. I’m dating myself a little bit, but typewriter set skills in this modern technology, so that’s one of the beautiful things this work has taught. Never pour from an empty cup, rely on your team and then operate in the power that you have, and that power will create the fidelity and integrity that you need to make a difference.

J. Robin Moon 33:39

Thank you so much. All the you, all three of you have been saying, are so powerful. You already so elegantly moved us forward. Our last question, the way we touch each other in the community, in collective – take care of one another, to do better, to be better. So the final question is the extension of our promising practice of checking in with each other. So we’re going to check out. I’m going to change the question just slightly. It was going to be about self self care. So tell our audience, tell the listeners, the one self care practice that you do that’s so great that you want to share with the world. We will start with Brianna.

Dr. Brianna Woods  34:20

So I’m not sure this is like, so great generalized self care practice, but it’s one that I’ve been really leaning into a self collective care practice, I would say, and it’s bittersweet. So I we have our aging dog, Haley, who has been a rock in our family. She’s been with me for my husband’s cancer journey and when he passed away, and it’s just this, like, tremendous source of support. And as she ages, you know, there’s a lot of grief and anticipatory grief with that, but one of the things that my daughters and I have been doing lately is just really leaning into all the time we have with her right now and slowing down to just be with her. We like, lay in the grass outside together. We’ve been cooking these little nutritious doggie meals that she can still eat, and just taking pictures, looking at old pictures. And I’m so lucky that I have these two young beings that are so like, energetic and resilient. But I think what it’s taught me around like, how important that practices of slowing down, even if you’re slowing down to do something hard, but just bringing your full self and being, feeling that if it’s the freedom or just the presence to be able to do that has really been nourishing. So it’s, again, it’s bittersweet, because there’s the sadness, but there’s also this piece of like, how it’s caring for each of us to be able to do this together. So that’s something I’ve been spending a lot of time doing lately, and has really been bringing me a lot of nourishment, I would say. So I’ll pass it to Dawn…

Dawn Townsend  35:40

Yeah, that’s so hard. That was so good. Dr, B, I love that. I love the sentiment of leaning into that. I think that’s something so important. And I love that we’re closing out right. In therapy, we always say, don’t open them up if you can’t close them out right. Like, so I appreciate this, right? I think I would have to say in the sentiment of slowing down, because, you know, exercising is something I’m always going to promote for self care. Like, I need that for my mental capacity in the morning, like, I will get zero sleep and wake up to work out at five o’clock on a regular like, because I have to do that. That is a must. But I will say, like, just as I get older, my biological mother passed away at 43 and I’m aging myself at this point from cancer, and that has been something I’m 43 and that has been something that has been like on repeat in my brain, right? So I’ve been heavily invested in making sure that I slow down like Dr Brianna was saying, because it does no good for yourself. If you are, you know, the hero to the world, or you wear your cape out in the world, and you have nothing that is fulfilling you and replenishing you at home, I have the amazing blessing of the gift from God that He gave me, my husband, and the husband that I have, and the children that I have. If it were not for them, my cup would not be restored on a day, day to day basis, like I have to have my family time, like I have to have that connection and that basis with my husband and with my children daily, otherwise, like I’m no good to anybody else, like it’s just, it’s a wrap. It is a wrap. So that is my that is the way that I continue to remain energized and remain hopeful. And you know you have to understand and see that you’re doing it for a reason and you’re doing it for a purpose, and for me, that is very intrinsically motivated by my family. DT, you’re closing us out, sir.

DT  37:34

I will be brief. I retired my pastor, so I’ll make sure we close out in a timely fashion. No, I’ll be honest with you, I’m glad I went third, because I’m going to use this as a moment to be vulnerable and transparent. I’m terrible at self care. I could teach it all day long. I could help people monitor it. But in 2025 I made it a point to make sure that I prioritize my self care. Um, as you heard me say earlier, you can’t pull from an empty cup, because nobody gets anything when you’re doing that. So I’ll say this really quickly. I’ve used meditation and working out, but really just writing down what a work life balance looks like. And really at the end of my day doing the Self Check. Did I do anything to improve my self care? I believe health is wealth. So you don’t want to be extremely wealthy and have bad health, because that’s not how the things should work, right? That’s not the right recipe for success. So I’ll say this to all those that are listening. We have this beautiful mural in our house, and it has three words on it, and I live by these words, and it’s it has been what has gotten me through hard times, even happy times, but it allows me to focus on myself, and it just simply says, “Live, Love and Laugh”, and I try to do those three things every single day. So as I’m closing out, I thank both of you for allowing me to live today, to love what I do, and to laugh. If you go back and look at the tape, you’ll see that I’m smiling. I’ll give you one now, and I just did self care. So it’s just that easy. So thank you all for it. But I do want people to prioritize. We have to be healthier and we have to help people heal. We often say, “Who heals the healer, who teaches to the teacher, who preaches to the preacher?” So we have to be the change we want to see in each other, so let’s love on each other. Let’s live a little longer, and let’s laugh harder.

J. Robin Moon 39:26

DT, Dawn and Brianna, thank you so much. Your self care method, if you will, is not separable from collective care. You’re so you you have shared with us your vulnerability and your groundedness and your grounded groundedness in your community and love, that’s really the answer, and you embody what you are talking about. I can feel it through the zoom window, and that is one of many promising practices. I think you are demonstrating today. So we are so grateful for your time and your sharing of your hearts with us today. Really deeply appreciate it.

Krystal Lee  40:10

Thank you. Thank you Brianna, Dawn, and DT. Thank you so much for sharing with us and for making this such a phenomenal final episode of season two of Promising Practices for Health Equity. Thank you for being with us and for sharing and thank you to all our listeners. Listeners, we would love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? You can find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders. LinkedIn page where you can share your thoughts, share your self care plans, share the promising practices that you are using in your work, and don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, Promising Practices for Health Equity so that you never miss an episode. Season Three is coming right up. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us on this journey where every step we take brings us closer to a healthier, more just world, until next time, take care.

Mandy LeBreche  41:17

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team Massachusetts (Cohort 5)

Season 2, Episode 9 | December 4, 2025

Speakers: Mandy LeBreche, Ndidiamaka Amutah-Onukagha, Christina Gebel, J. Robin Moon, Krystal Lee

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcasts brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation

Krystal Lee  00:21

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and my co host is J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research, Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey, Robin! This season of Promising Practices, as you know, we are exploring the experiences, stories and lessons learned by our IRL fellows and alumni. And today, it is our distinct honor to talk with representatives from cohort five, from Team Massachusetts. Welcome, Ndidiamaka Amutah-Onukagha and Christina Gabel. Hello, friends!

Ndidiamaka Amutah  01:05

Hi. Thanks for having us.

J. Robin Moon 01:08

So glad to have you with us today. Before we ask you to tell us about yourselves and your work, we invite you to engage with us in one of our signature, IRL promising practices, checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So at the beginning of our meetings, internal meetings of different kinds, we do a quick check in to help us continuously build connections in our beloved community. So today, here’s our check in question. What is the one thing that makes you feel hopeful these days? You know, I will start. I just saw my nephew, who is entering the second year of college, and I’m, like, two generations older than him. I’m older than his mother. I’ve been thinking a lot about them and their, you know, overall, holistic, especially mental well being, and the work that I do for the next generation and social determinants and systems, I might just not be able to see the results. I think that, you know, I have been trained to think about, like the outcome at the end of this grant, you know, and at the end of this program, or, you know, whatever I can write in the report, like the immediate results speaking myself, I, you know, tend to obsess and really looking at him, he gives me and we have other kids in the family. They give me hope in, you know what I am not able to see right now for the next generation. So my work might not reap the results tomorrow or next decade, but for him and other kids in the family. So that’s the hope that I have for the next generation. I’m going to toss it to Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:57

Thanks, Robin. One of the things that makes me feel hopeful these days is the connection and the network that I have been creating over the last several years of my life, from college all the way till today, and also my family. Having my family close to me is super important. But as it relates to the network, you know, there’s so much that’s going on in the world, and I have friends in different places, and we are generally of like mind, and we support each other, and we find things that are funny, and find just ways to cope together. And I am grateful that I’ve been able to cultivate such a supportive network over time. It’s really serving me to be able to laugh and talk with my friends, even though we all recognize that things are a little bit strange these days. So that’s one thing that’s making me hopeful. What about you Ndidi, I’ll toss it to you.

Ndidiamaka Amutah  04:01

Yeah, I think it’s my kids. I know it’s my kids. I have three little ones, and they have such a curiosity for life. They have such an innocence, and they’re just super inquisitive, and they’re just so malleable at this age, and I just feel really compelled to provide opportunities for them to always have good experiences, always make meaningful memories, always be kind to people like they’re so teachable and they’re so protected from the ills of the world, and so it’s just been nice to kind of see life through their eyes and the things that get them excited and The things that makes them light up, and the questions that they ask, I think that is what keeps me hopeful and also keeps me accountable.

Christina Gebel  04:52

Yeah, I can add on to that as well. So something that I have found hope in is a gratitude journal that I keep every night, and I have done that since I was 16. And I started writing down something that somebody said each day as something I can look back on and reflect on. And yesterday, I was reached out to by somebody in the wider doula world. And it was just a call to connect and, like, hopefully offer some help and advice. And she started the conversation by saying, I’ve been such a big fan of your work, and I had to, like, look behind me and be like, is there someone else here, like the ghost of research past or something, because that was the first time that I can recall in my life that anybody used that word “work” with me, and it gave me hope, because I realized that someone is out there and they’re watching and listening and taking something from it, and I had never known this person before yesterday, and think, how many more people for Ndidi, for IRL, think how many more people are looking at the work and being inspired by it, and that work is never going to go away. It’s already been done and it’ll live on so.

Krystal Lee  06:24

Awesome. Thank you. So let’s jump right Ndidi, tell our listeners a little about yourself, and then you can popcorn it to Christina,

Ndidiamaka Amutah  06:33

yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. I sit in many different identities. I think the one that I’m leaning into right now, as I kind of mentioned in my check-in question is motherhood, being a mom. I have a young family, and, you know, I often joke that I do 14 to 16 hour shifts every day. This will tell you the depth of the labor that it entails to run a household, three kids, three adults. So that’s the identity that I wear pretty proudly and loudly right now is just “Jackie of all trades”, a master scheduler, a diplomat, a negotiator, a comedian, a peacekeeper, a nurse for the boo boos, a chef. Professionally, I run a research center here at Tufts University and School of Medicine on black maternal health and reproductive justice, and the framing of my Center really is to elevate and promote the birthing experience for black and brown people who are disproportionately burdened by racism and inequities in the healthcare system. Out of that work is two things that I really kind of have given me a lot of joy. One is a large conference we do every year on black maternal health, really centering those most impacted and bringing awareness to the topic. And then two is my student lab. So I have the largest lab in the country on maternal health, scholars and researchers. It’s called the Mother Lab. So these are two things professionally that bring me a lot of joy. I also am a wife and sister and a daughter and a researcher, and I consider myself to be a community engaged scholar. I really get a lot of joy and accountability from working with our community partners. And I see myself as someone that is the go between, between the ivory tower and where the solutions are, which is not an ivory tower. So that’s a very long answer to your question, but these are all the titles that I kind of vacillate between on a I’m not even gonna say daily, I’m gonna say like hourly, minute by minute basis. Christina…

Christina Gebel  08:44

Yeah, so if I were to choose the word that I would first describe myself as, I think it would be a writer. I love to write, and not necessarily technical writing, although I do that too. But really, if I could spend my day doing whatever I wanted for eight hours, it would be more of a, like, reflective writing voice. I’ve been in the nonprofit and maternal and child health world for 14 years now, and I think there’s been a lot of ups and a lot of downs and a lot of wisdom that’s come from that. And I’m in this part of my life right now where I’m starting to reflect a lot about it and what feels authentic, and what I feel like I’m ready to kind of set aside in this phase in life. Professionally, I’m a co-founder of Accompany Doula Care, which is in Massachusetts, and that’s how Ndidi and I became acquainted. And I’m a cat mom, I’m a wife. I love decorating my house. I’ve been called calling myself a decorator. Yeah, I just I love engaging. creatively, and this work has allowed me to take the creativity to the outlet of solutions and maternal health.

J. Robin Moon 10:10

So many superpowers here. Next question is to hear about how you came to health equity work and what health equity looks like to you.

Christina Gebel  10:20

Yeah, so I will honestly say that how I grew up in a very middle class, working background looked very homogenous. Every student in my grade school was white, everybody was Christian, everybody went to the same church attached to the school, most of the surrounding areas and where I grew up, again, very homogenous. So for me, it was definitely a bubble that I think, you know, I look back fondly on and I appreciate because I really did have my needs met and had wonderful people around me, but my horizons were very limited, and it wasn’t until I went to college, and y’all are going to laugh, but in college, I thought I was going to become a theology professor.

Christina Gebel  11:29

I mean, I laugh now, because I was like, I wanted to go straight into the PhD track for theology. And thankfully, I had a mentor who was like, “maybe you should take some time off and think about life”. And I did, and I did faith based community service for two years at a high school in Chicago, and that’s where things really started to broaden. I taught at a school that was an all girls school, but the tuition was mostly subsidized by philanthropy, and I just fell in love with these girls. Like a lot of folks don’t want to be around teenagers. I think teenagers are some of the most fascinating people on the planet, and some of my students became pregnant during their high school careers, and I found myself not just wanting to help them finish high school, which was obviously important, but wanting to support them in this pregnancy. You know, I used to go to thrift stores in Chicago, and I’d pick up all the previous editions of like, pregnancy books, and I remember one was called girlfriend’s guide to pregnancy, and I had a student who I gave it to who was pregnant, and she came back in the next day and said, I read it cover to cover, and… I loved it. Now, granted, I was teaching English literature and no one was reading anything else. I gave them cover to cover, especially in one day, they were like, “Eh I don’t need this… not not interesting”. And it just clicked for me that while the classroom was important, connecting people on a connecting to people on a human and heart level, and meeting them where they’re at with what’s most important to them right now was really where my focus should lie. And so that began a discernment process that led me to becoming a doula and eventually to working toward equity for all maternal health outcomes.

Ndidiamaka Amutah  13:40

Thank you. I didn’t know about the Chicago part of your background. We got to talk more about that. For me, I think you know, I was doing health equity and experiencing health equity before I had the language. So my parents immigrated to the United States from Nigeria in the late 70s and started having kids in the early 80s, in Trenton, New Jersey, which is where I was born and raised. And I think that duality culturally, of being Nigerian and foundation and things that were happening in the home and our practices and the focus on communal and education, I think, you know, I was reading encyclopedias from like, eight or nine years old. It was normal, right? And, and I think back to that dichotomy growing up in a really, like, Christian based education, focused, culturally grounded, affirming home. You know, you’re a daughter of the land, you’re a queen, you’re a king for my brothers, like just really, really being super fortified and affirmed. And so we walk out, we’re like, I got this, you know? And so that foundation, I spend time saying that, because as soon as we walked out, you’re met with the opposite of that, right? Trenton is a gritty city. It is the capital of New Jersey. It’s my hometown. Nobody can say anything bad about it, but it’s a gritty city. It’s a bit of a… got to have a little bit of street and book smarts to make it out. And so I think coming from such a mixed upbringing, this cultural duality, but also being in a school public education, K through 12, where you’re seeing everything that you would think happens in an urban school district in the 90s. I mean, all those movies – Dangerous Minds -that was my school, all those movies, that was our experience every day. And it was normalized having friends that had kids in high school. Normalized going to funerals of people that you know died from gang violence or police violence, or people that were incarcerated at 16, 17, 18 years old, doing life sentences, that was normalized. I didn’t understand the language at the time, but I did know. I was smart enough to know and be and I was aware enough to understand that kids that were in neighboring High School. So Trenton is an urban community in a very wealthy County, Mercer County, New Jersey, and I was a captain and debate team, so we’d go to other schools, and I’d be like, “Wow, look at their classrooms. They have doors and computers”. And I remember we walked into one high school they had carpet. I was like, “Oh, my God, I’m in the White House”. So it was interesting, because I didn’t have the language, but I knew implicitly, like these students are going to have better educational advantages than people coming from my high school, and it was reflected in a data Trenton has the lowest, or is the lowest or top five lowest performing high schools in the state. Still, till today, our graduation rate is abysmal, and you know, I think it’s the perfect hotbed of opportunity and inequity. You know, we used to have an industrial economic movement that has dried up, and so now people are trying to do what they can to survive. All of that is health equity. That was all my foundation. That was all my upbringing, social determinants of health. I saw people’s access or lack thereof. I literally watched what it means to be able to have access to transportation, eat healthy fruits and vegetables, have quality education, all these things. I didn’t have the language, but I felt it in my spirit. These people that have these things are going to have better outcomes. Are going to live longer lives than people that grow up in my on my block and in my community. And then when I went to college, I majored in public health, and that’s when I started to get the language – social determinants of health and life expectancy and quality of life. And I said, this is what I grew up in. I didn’t know it, but I did know that my counterparts in high school weren’t going to funerals at 15, 16 they’re writing on the lunch napkin, does Johnny like me and what? Let’s go get pizza after cheerleading camp. We weren’t doing that in Trenton okay? So it was just me. My lived experience is so central to who I am as a researcher, because I am my community. I feel what my community partners, I lived it, and that’s what gives me authenticity when I come into the community and and that’s what also gives me the opportunity to prioritize community in the research process when it comes to allocation of resources or where, who gets the lion’s share, how money is given out, I don’t approach it from an academic model, because that model will leave a pittance for the community. Once you put in an overhead and an indirect cost, there’s nothing left. That’s actually what you need to do the work. So I feel really grateful to have the framing of an academic but the heart of a community, and I carry Trenton with me everywhere I go. I think it’s why I’m so successful, because I was able to have that upbringing. But that is my Introduction to Health Equity. It was really watching communities around me and how people have to work two or three jobs, and how people you know you’re are late for appointments. And what does that mean when you have to take the bus, you have to take two busses, you have to take three busses, and you’re late. Now you can’t get that appointment or that job because you have to drop the kids off, and now you’re late. That’s social. Determinants of health, these income inequities exacerbate over time, and now people, the gap widens and widens, and the stress deepens and deepens, and stress kills people at 35 and 45 and 55 but you see your counterparts that have more resources and autonomy over their time. They’re living till 70, 80 with their retirement plans. Well, we’re not seeing that in urban communities. So that’s my Introduction to Health Equity as I got into the work.

Krystal Lee  19:34

Wow. Thank you all for sharing those deeply personal experiences that led you to the work of health working towards health equity. So the title of your IRL project was “Promoting Maternal Health Equity through Collaborative Community Partnerships: Teaming, Doulas, Providers and Families to Create Birth equity”. If you wouldn’t mind, tell us. And tell our listeners about your project and about the promising practices that have emerged from your work.

Ndidiamaka Amutah  20:08

Christine, you want to kick us off…

Christina Gebel  20:11

Okay, so I think Ndidi would start by saying that we wrote the grant during the pandemic. We had ordered Panera into a conference room, and we’re really just vibing and brainstorming, not having any idea what was coming in the year 2020. But Ndidi, myself and our third team member, who is an OBGYN, really brought three sides of the coin, both as a community organization person, a scholar and a clinical provider. And I think something that inspired me in creating the project was as a doula, I’m tasked with giving people the information they need to know, but I’ve always really struggled with doing that in a way that doesn’t increase anxiety. And something that had been concerning to me, and I think all of us, was finally the attention had been paid to the disparate experiences of maternity in this country, but it’s also extremely scary, especially for black women or black birthing people. But I would say for everybody, you know, I’ve had two pregnancy losses to date, and I still get very anxious when I enter into the system myself, because I’ve seen the breakdown so many times. And so as a doula working directly with families, you know, a lot of time we talk about empowerment and this and that, and know the information. But what if the information you’re giving people is causing stress and anxiety to them, despite needing to know it. So we were really interested, from a multi faceted angle, doulas, providers, partners, birthing people, looking at where we had landed with the issue of maternal mortality and all the attention that had been paid to it, and wanting to really tap into how people were feeling about it, how it was informing their maternity care choices, because what do you do with all that information? How does that change where you go and access care? And more importantly, now that the wider society, I guess you could say is aware, you know what really is the vision of what will heal and produce better outcomes in the future. So that’s, that’s how I would describe it. I’m sure, Ndidi you would add some things in there as well.

Ndidiamaka Amutah  22:55

Yeah, I think that was a great summary, and I can’t believe that you remembered. It was Panera….

J Robin Moon  23:02

Was like five memorable, memorable meals.

Christina Gebel  23:05

I mean, I always remember free food, where it came from, you know?

Ndidiamaka Amutah  23:10

I think the crux of what Christina mentioned is that this grant was really written from a place of like love, right? And I think that’s the one thing that we need in a conversation around maternal health. I always, every time I do a talk on the inequities and the data, and 84% of maternal deaths are preventable, and Black women are three to four times more likely to die. People are always so… it’s so jarring to hear that if you don’t sit in this data every day, and I always get a question from the audience, what can we do? And I always say, as a clinician, as a service provider, as someone in the perinatal workforce, all you need to do is to just be human, right? Like if we saw each other as human beings, this person giving birth could be your mother, Aunt, or sister, sorority member, anybody that you feel a connection to. If we just started off there, we would not have the rates that we have. The problem comes when we see people as different than who we are, as “other”, as marginalized as “those people over there with those issues”. That’s where the problem comes into and so this teaming framework that we approached our work, to me, is like the gold star of the North compass of what we should be doing to ameliorate these inequities. Christina as a doula, me as a researcher, our colleague, Audra as an OBGYN. These three members, like that is the trifecta. That’s where the solution is right. And we have lived experience. We have professional expertise, like this is what is needed. So that’s the idea that we use to come up with a project. And I’m really proud of what we are able to accomplish. I think it’s an incredible contribution to the work. I think it definitely shows that we are not as siloed as we currently are. We don’t need to be that siloed. And I think when we respect each other’s professional and personal expertise, you can work together communally. That’s the thing that I think worked the best. And so the project is one of those kind of like bright stars when you think about your portfolio of research and the clinical, random clinical trials and the multi site interventions and the blah blah and the blah blah. This is like that, like, warm cookie project, like, it’s just so just had such a sweet spot in my heart because of the love that was behind the writing of the project, and that’s why the grant was so good. I mean, we did one take. It was literally written in one day, and it was funded because we put our heart into that. So yeah…

Krystal Lee  25:46

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I have a follow up question, if one of you would speak to like, What is the vision? What are you all working to achieve? What does the future look like to you based on your work?

Christina Gebel  26:00

I hoped you would ask this question, because, you know, one of the things about the podcast is, what promising practices have you brought to the work? And I don’t think we can answer that question without talking about one of the ones that we brought. So we enlisted a consultant, Namisha Patel from the New Guard to teach us about Design Thinking. And Design Thinking essentially encourages you to take something that is, look at it in a new way, and make something it ought to be like. That is the vision. And I think, having been in the academic world, myself, included, with our team members for a very long time, we didn’t want to just go about collecting data in a way that we always had, or like looking to the literature about how to structure the questions, like, we wanted to radically blow open the data collection process. And that’s why Design Thinking starts with the assumption that what you should be creating or envisioning in this aspect, should be something that the user wants for themselves, and could see themselves using it would make their life a whole lot easier and, in this case, safer. So, you know, we went through this process, we learned a lot about it, and there’s actually some really great literature out there on CBPR and integrating Design Thinking, but one of the frameworks that the consultant brought to us was actually out of NYU Scott Galloway, and it is a framework that kind of blew my mind, as someone who’s done a lot of focus groups in the past. He talks about focus group experience and how, you know, you think of it as inclusive, and certainly we had included a lot of stakeholders, but afterwards, those people should feel dignified. You think of it as a trusting space, but afterwards, they should feel a sense of healing. You think of it as an authentic space, but afterward, they should actually feel connected. And then the last one was encouraging and safe. People should feel hopeful and satisfied. So that right there, I would say, created the soil to talk about vision, because we weren’t just there to talk about… the data were already there on what the problem is. We really wanted to create spaces and instruments, if you will, to draw out the depths of how people would like the system to be. So I’ll pause there.

Ndidiamaka Amutah  28:50

I have nothing to add to that. Christina, that’s incredible. I mean, you know, I think for me, the only thing I would say is, like our what keeps coming up for me is our promising practice is community – rooted in community that is something that’s a little bit peripheral to academic conditioning. As academics, we are focused on really this top down approach, and our project was really grassroots, right? We worked with providers. We worked with doulas, midwives, we worked with families, birthing people. This really communal approach to everyone’s input is part of the teaming process. It is not just providers who are kind of calling us shots, it’s people that are actually giving birth and their family members and their support systems and their doulas. And right? What does this kind of triangulation look like? So that’s a promising practice that I think we need to reframe in the academy. Where do solutions lie? What is the definition of expert? How do we expand that definition to be community centered and to also incorporate the people that allow us to function in our expertise, which is our families. If anybody was to talk to my husband, he could give you a whole rendition of our birthing process, right? And I think we are super siloed, and we miss a lot of the richness in the data, and frankly, the solutions when we operate from that approach

J. Robin Moon 30:19

So wonderful. We we keep on hearing very similar promising practices from other guests here in the podcast. So it’s really confirming – so user centered, user LED. You know, all about the user-  starting from with inside out. And I also heard you talk about, like, how personal it has been from how you, you know, encountered health equity from a young age, and how that has shaped your vision and life, you know. So I think that is a promising practice, also, also something we’ve been hearing and it’s not, certainly not something that we have seen codified in public health textbooks. So those two I mean, yeah, enough said, That’s really beautiful, and we will share the source from NYU Scott Galloway in our podcast notes also for the audience.

Now about, well, even more personal. So one of our core beliefs at this podcast is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler, when she says, All that you touch you change, all that you change changes you. So the interwoven nature of this work, which goes with all the personal investment that you’ve been talking about, well, each of you briefly share with us how IRL community that you’ve been part of since 2020. Which I remember, the virtual meeting. All virtual. It was a really trying time. How has IRL changed you? And how do you think that you’ve changed the program and the IRL community,

Christina Gebel 32:02

I’d love to hear, indeed, easy, yeah,

Ndidiamaka Amutah  32:05

on this journey, you know, I think being the cohort in 2020 was such a seminal event. And I do think there are things that worked really, really well, like our community meeting every Friday in community, those workshops, the speakers, that didactic parts. I think that was really helpful to kind of ground us. It has changed me, because it has helped to reframe my kind of individualistic perspective on doing research, like there’s such a network, such a richness around the country, of brilliant scholars, community members, just such a depth to this work, and we all approach it with that passion and commitment and intentionality that is incredible. Another thing that I really appreciated is just how level the power dynamics were between the academic partner and the community partner. That was very intentional. It was woven throughout every part of the project and the funding. And I just, I love that model of doing research, and so that has changed me and made me even more grateful and humble when I’m in the space of working among my community research partners. So those things. And then, of course, you know, IRL and RWJF do nothing small. So just to be in community together in these incredible spaces, the agendas were so, so thoughtful, and the follow up even making sure we still have an alumni network to tap into. It’s just a family, it’s a it’s a research family, a network of practitioners that you can always lean on that is super receptive, and I’m so grateful to be a part of it, because it has reframed how I think about research and who I reach out to and how I work with community. So, yeah…

J. Robin Moon 33:49

That’s a huge compliment. Thank you. Christina, [do] you have anything to add to that?

Christina Gebel  33:55

Yeah, I think that one common thread that I’m feeling as I reflect back on the first question, and then how we want the vision to be, and then this question with IRL is a thread of authenticity. So when I was a high school teacher, and I’m thankful that I learned this lesson, because teenagers are a tough crowd. They really want to know what you’re about and if you’re there for them and who you are, and that you’re not trying to put on any pretenses or hats, or are you really there for them? Are you there for you? So I remember the vulnerability of going into the spaces and thinking that, wondering if I would establish trust, if, on you know, the face of it, we were so different in how we had arrived there. But what they taught me was that authenticity can really ground everybody in the room and be the place where trust can flourish. And throughout my life, after that experience, I will say I lacked spaces where that full vulnerability and trust dynamic could flourish. And one of the spaces I eventually felt that is, I’ll just say, working with my fellow team members Ndidi and Audra. We are friends. We are also colleagues, and it was so nice to be in an authentic, trusting, vulnerable space with them throughout the project that the program only encouraged and furthered by the culture, the ethos and the vibe, if you will, that was always in the room. So I would say these are rare spaces, but they’re powerful spaces because a lot of good work and good community and good trust and relationships can come out of that. So that’s what I appreciated about IRL.

J. Robin Moon 36:09

Thank you, beautifully said.

Krystal Lee  36:12

Thank you all so much. One of the things that has been obvious to me in this conversation and in others is the personal nature of the work, especially for many of the folks that we’ve talked to, the work that they do is connected with their history and their experience, and connecting that to the fact that the work towards health equity and against systems of oppression can be so challenging and can take its toll. So the final question we want to ask is if you could please share with our listeners, how do you engage in self care as you do this difficult work?

Ndidiamaka Amutah  36:50

Peloton. After the birth of our second…

J. Robin Moon 36:58

not a sponsor message. I

Ndidiamaka Amutah  37:03

Peloton … changed my life. If you see me on a Saturday morning, I’m rocking the gear… full –  like I love Peloton. You know whyI like them, because I love the accessibility class. You only got five minutes. I got a five minute class. You got 60 minutes, which I have you?

J. Robin Moon 37:19

It’s user centered!!

Ndidiamaka Amutah  37:23

And so that’s my thing. When I feel the stress on me, we all hold stress in our bodies in different ways. I’m like, Babe, hold the kids. I need 15 minutes. I go on there and I run it out. And of course, that releases the endorphins. You come out, you feel great. So that’s my thing. And I also have started doing these, like, “Mommy breaks” and so like, if I’m going to a conference or I’m going to speak somewhere, I come in a little bit early, or I stay a little bit late, and it could be like half a day, but that’s just my – I don’t have any free time. That’s my free time, right? Like, those six hours before I have to leave is like heaven. So I’ve started to be more intentional about timing, because you’re never going to wake up with three kids and say, “Oh, I’m what am I going to do today?” Right? Like your day is already done for you. So that’s like, my self care is to remember myself in the work.

Christina Gebel  38:12

That’s incredible. I would say, all of that shines through and Ndidi impresses me every day, and it impresses me that you have the physical energy to do everything you just, I mean, it’s, it’s incredible. I don’t think we can overstate enough how much doing this as a mother is especially a challenge and a triumph. For me I think it’s been my creative side. So I love to host people. I love to like I said, do thoughtful touches around our home that make people feel and think like I really thought about them, or we’re really trying to communicate something about who we are as a family. You know, my husband comes from a different culture, and it’s been a pleasure and an honor to try to navigate two different cultures, two different religions, two different cuisines, like beautiful things can come from that intersection. And I wanted our home to be a space that clearly communicates that we celebrate and cherish that. We also live in, like a wooded area. And it’s funny because now, when my husband and I go to the city, we’re like, so overwhelmed. We’re like, “oh my gosh, look at all this noise, like cars, so many cars”, you know, and it I think we both each have had moments of realizing how much the quiet has penetrated into our soul and like helped us. You know, he’s really big into meditation. I’m really big into prayer and journaling, like I said. Yeah, so the quiet has just been like what we needed at this point in our life, and a huge well to draw from for self care.

J. Robin Moon 40:10

That’s a lot of wisdom. Thank you so much. Team Massachusetts Ndidi and Christina cohort 5 2020 through 2022, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. We deeply appreciate your insight.

Krystal Lee  40:29

Thank you. Yes, thank you. We are so grateful for you to be here with us and to share your wisdom and your experience with us and with our listeners, it is such a gift to us. Thank you. And thank you also to our listeners, we would love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity. Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts and leave questions for us or for Team Massachusetts. And don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world until next time, take care.

Mandy LeBreche  41:28

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team ATL Grove Park (Cohort 7)

Season 2, Episode 8 | November 20, 2025

Speakers: KaToya Sumner, Linda Animashaun, Krystal Lee, J. Robin Moon, Mandy LeBreche, Maureen Sanchez, Erin Bradley

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:19

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and my co host is J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey Robin!

J. Robin Moon 00:38

Hi Krystal. Good to be here

Krystal Lee  00:41

Good to have you! This season of Promising Practices, as you know, we are exploring the experiences, the stories and the lessons of our IRL fellows and alumni. And today, we are so pleased to have representatives of cohort seven with us from Team ATL Grove Park. We would love to welcome Erin Bradley, Maureen Sanchez, Linda Animashaun and Katoya Sumner. Welcome friends!!

J. Robin Moon 01:11

We’re so glad to have you with us today. Before we ask you to tell us about yourself and your work, we invite you to engage with us in one of our signature, IRL, promising practices – checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So at the beginning of our meetings at IRL, we do a quick check in with everybody to help us continuously build connections and prioritize our beloved community. So the check in question for today, if you could share one insight with your younger self, what would it be? Just one I will start so much. I would tell my younger self to try not to take yourself so seriously. I’m going to toss it to Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:11

I thought you were going to say what I was going to say, which is I would encourage my younger self to try more things and to not be so afraid of trying new things. I will toss it to Maureen.

Maureen Sanchez  02:25

That’s so funny. Mine’s like the opposite. I’m like, try less things, but I like all adjusting aside. I think that more so the concept. I think I was scared and this may come up. I personally like my faith is important to me, and I this may come up throughout our podcast, but I think that I didn’t trust that God would show up in certain areas, and I then tried to fill in the gap. And I think I would just tell my younger self to take a step, to just wait and like, have more faith. Basically, I’ll toss to Erin.

Erin Bradley  03:04

Oh, let’s see. Y’all have good ones, as cliche as it sounds like. Enjoy the journey. It’s very easy to be working towards something and then so focused on that destination that you really aren’t like, enjoying all of the things along the way. And then you get to that thing, and then there’s the next thing. And if you’re always looking forward to the next thing, you won’t be able to, like, enjoy all the little things in the middle, all the very confusing and sometimes difficult things in the middle that help you better appreciate the end of the journey. I’ll toss it to Katoya.

KaToya Sumner  03:39

Gosh, I don’t know why things like this, like, I’m like, anxious. I’m like, What would I say? Well, that was good. Well, that was good. I think. I mean, I talk to younger Katoya a lot, so we know what’s going on. But I think I would just say there’s so much power in connection, and never take any small conversation as minor, because you never know the value that that conversation can have or the relationship that you build with that person. So just a power in like, the opportunity of like meeting new people and not knowing where that could land lend itself in your life. And then, Linda…

Linda Animashaun  04:18

Thank you, I will say what I would tell my younger self and my current self to that it’s okay to fail. It is okay and it doesn’t expect it, and you will not die. And so I guess it’s a spin on try more things and be okay to with risk, because you will fail and you will and you will survive, it will be fine, and you will learn new things. As a result, it’s a learning experience rather than a quote, unquote, actual failure. So I. Ian, that’s what I would tell my younger and current self. I’m getting older by the second, so I’m still telling my younger self, perfect.

Krystal Lee  05:11

Thank you all for sharing. Maureen, let’s start here. Let’s start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself, and then you can popcorn it to another one of your team members, and we’ll go from there and get to know and get to know you all.

Maureen Sanchez  05:23

Okay. My name is Maureen. I’m originally from New Jersey, and then came to Atlanta in 2010 to do a year long program that places youth in inner city neighborhoods. And like I said, faith is important to me, so it’s a faith based program, but it naturally is kind of like anti missional work, because it’s like, oh, you probably have a savior complex. Turns out God’s already here. No one really needs you. And then you go through a curriculum about, like, racial reconciliation and learning about systems of oppression and things like that. And so I did that, and then I stayed in my neighborhood and kind of continued to live out the values that were from the program with different alumni. And so I then, kind of Yeah, was exposed to a lot, and was kind of wrestling with, like, where do I interject? And like, where’s my passion of trying to stop the different systems? And so I became a substance abuse counselor, but I realized I’m not extroverted enough to be doing that, and so I more so I like the concepts of, like, how, like, what’s the goal, and then how do you break down the steps to get there? And, yeah, and so I went back to grad school for community development. And so I got my master’s at Emory with a focus in program planning and organizational management. And so I started working at Grove Park renewal in 2021 and we do affordable housing, and I was hired on to build out our programs with a community focus, and really more so of how do we bring residents together to support one another. And yeah, most, most of the now that we’re talking about this, most of the pattern is like, I’m not needed. How do I get spaces where I’m not needed? And then last month, I became the Executive Director, so yay. So I’ll pass it to Katoya.

KaToya Sumner  07:41

A little bit about myself. Well, I am, I’m a fitness professional, but I have a background in education. I’m a former teacher. I’ve also have a background in property management, in all realms of the way, but ultimately, I am a believer in creating positive spaces for people to feel seen, heard and loved. And so every space that I’ve been in, whether it’s a classroom, whether it’s property management, which can sometimes be a hard place to show compassion at times, but fortunately, I’ve been a part of companies and organizations that put that first, even in property management and in creating and cultivating a space for that and fitness. And so I think that’s the governing drive amongst what I enjoy doing. And as long as I can do that in some type of way, then it’s a win. So that’s kind of a simple background for myself. Erin…

Erin Bradley  08:45

All right, um, let’s see. I am a college professor and a public health researcher. My primary aim is to help people and populations identify barriers and remove them, stop people from being as healthy as they would like to be. So that is me in a nutshell. Work wise, I’m also a loving Auntie to a 16 year old, which I can’t believe. Hey, Abigail, and then my five year old niece, Zara and my two year old nephew, Kenzo, who I FaceTime almost daily, help to balance out all of the difficult work. Also I love to shop and I love to watch movies, so I play as hard as I work kind of thing, keep things in balance. But that’s pretty much me, Linda, last but not least.

Linda Animashaun  09:39

Thank you. Hello everyone. I’m Linda Animashaun. I am a health equity focused evaluator and so, and I’m not affiliated with any university. I actually, in the course of, during the course of IRL, I I went on self employment. I. Started my own business well back in 2021 but I went full time in 2020 at the end of 2024 and the work that I do focuses on, as I’ve mentioned, health equity, making sure that organizations are aware of how their public health programs are working in order and how effective they are, in order for them to increase visibility on their programs in terms of having more people participate, but also helping them with regards to increasing funding for the work that’s working In my personal life, I am. I’m also a believer, as Maureen mentioned. In fact, Maureen Ian and I’m, well, I guess we didn’t meet at church, but at one point we all attended together. I was, I’m from New Jersey, like Maureen. My family is from Ghana, and I’ve been in Atlanta since 2007 I came to Atlanta for for my Master of Public Health degree, which is where I met Erin. She was my TA I love to say that, but and that was up until IRL, that was the extent of our professional interaction together. So both Maureen and Aaron and now katoya have become friends, and so that’s me. I’m also an auntie of two, two little babies, one CJ, who is three and zariah, who will be one in December, almost the same age as Maureen’s youngest as well.

J. Robin Moon 11:43

Thank you so much, Linda, and thank you for everybody to sharing a piece of who you are. For our audience, let’s talk about your IRL project team ATL Grove Park, the title of your project, your team’s project was “Creating margin for the marginalized: Evaluating a multi level strategy to address effects of systemic racism in housing and health”. It’s a mouthful, and there’s so many questions already. Erin, would you like to tell the audience about the project where your community, you know, is, and also one, at least one promising practice that has emerged from your project and the team, feel free to have a conversation about it.

Erin Bradley  12:34

Yeah, thank you for that. So we chose the longest title possible. It’s always hard. We kind of default to creating margin for the marginalized and then just fill in the blanks later, because, you know, it was fine in print, but it’s a mouthful, for sure. So what we did actually, was a program evaluation for Grove Park renewal. And I’ll let Maureen talk a little bit more about Grove Park Renewal, but our goal was to identify a model. So we saw a model that we thought was unique in some ways, pairing affordable rent with wraparound services, basically having a comprehensive way of providing the other support that could create margin for people who are socially and economically marginalized. So a lot of programs will just have section eight vouchers, for example, or some way to provide affordable rent. But that doesn’t meet all the rest of the needs that people have, often by no fault of their own, just the systems and structures that exist that stop people from being able to transition out of programs are out of a state of needing assistance and just believing that coupling those support resources with affordable rent would give people some space to breathe, give them some margin so that they get stabilized and then move to housing independence and social and economic mobility all of that. So yeah, Grove Park Renewal I had started a couple years ago doing, and I forgot to mention Agnes Scott college is where I am located. Through Agnes Scott I got a little bit of research funding to explore the health effects of unaffordable housing. Most of the housing conversation has been about money. It’s been specifically economic. Well, if you can’t afford to live here, just move somewhere else where you can afford to live, and that has become increasingly difficult. But apart from that, when you change your address, you change your life. And so when we’re displacing people, we’re not accounting for the physical, mental, social effects of doing that. We’re disrupting networks. People have been rooted somewhere for a while. They have to pick up and go start life over. So, yeah, I was doing the formative research for that. I did some interviews with people in a couple of the areas on the west side. And so I was connected to Grove Park Renewal, just kind of as a result of that. And so I met Maureen in 2021 i. I’m to kind of assist for some of the community engagement portion. There’s a program that she’ll talk about, but that was, I’m a behavioral scientist by training, and focus on intervention research. So as the program was coming together, I tried to just provide a little bit of insight about like people and how people behave and receive information and all of those things. And so that’s kind of how we connected. So Maureen, do you want to talk a little bit about Grove Park Renewal and cultivate and just that overlap?

Maureen Sanchez  15:30

Yeah, yeah. So Grove Park Renewal started about 10 years ago on the west side of Atlanta, specifically, where, after the housing crisis, there were hundreds of homes that went up for foreclosure. And so what ended up happening was that investors from all around the world just started purchasing up blocks of houses, and then they were all like waiting for the flip. And so you just had people hoarding these houses, and it was just decomposing community and then bringing in other elements that the neighbors obviously did not want, that comes with the things that happened in abandoned houses. And so and philanthropists ended up donating money to start Grove Park renewal, where we were able to purchase a couple dozen homes and plots of land to preserve the houses, and then to kind of with the goal of preserving community as well. And so, because the neighborhood was 86% renters, and because of the area income, we decided to have those be rental houses. Because what was happening, too was over the years, the neighborhood did start, then to gentrify, and so people then who were living in their housing houses renting, then those houses were being sold off, and they had nowhere to go. And so we really kind of tried to create this model to prevent displacement. And something that’s really big in Atlanta is AMI and an affordable housing in general. So it’s, it’s the area and median income. And in Atlanta, they’re taking the Atlanta area, but then also some of the suburban areas, and adding those into the median income number, which then kind of skews the numbers significantly higher and so So, kind of an example is that the based on the the charts, and it goes by the HUD AMI charts, the family of two should the average in Atlanta is that family of two or three is making about $100,000 for their household income. And so that doesn’t matter to if it’s a husband or wife or two adult incomes that could be where like or a person and their child. So then in our neighborhood, the average income is around $30,000 and it has gone up, so it is maybe about $40,000 now, but that is still about 30 or 40% Ami. And so with affordable housing, you typically don’t have anyone building housing less than 60% Ami. And so because of that, we’re it just Yeah, is creating more displacement. So Grove Park renewal is dedicated to providing affordable housing at 60% or below. Primarily that is really creating spaces where people aren’t displaced. So that’s kind of the context of Grove Park renewal. And so then the original idea was that people would have affordable housing, and then just naturally, with like Maslow’s hierarchy idea, they would have the secure space, and then they’d be able to kind of just climb up the ladder to self actualization. And so like Aaron was referencing, the reality is that the systems themselves are so broken that it is a full time job navigating these, these cycles that are just designed against people and and so I was hired on to kind of help create structures to to help our residents navigate that, and most of that, which we love so much about IRL, and the values of that, because I feel like it, it aligns so well is, is that residents is an assets based approach, essentially, and realizing that that residents know the information they are not, they don’t need us, and more so is connecting them to one another so that they could help. One another out and connecting them to the resources that’s already in the community. And so we the kind of bread and butter of of Grove Park renewal is cultivate where we have taken our residents in small cohorts. So it’s around 10 to 15 people every week and bringing them together to just have a cross pollination of resources and then also learning some curriculum that kind of then helps them reach whatever goals they are. So for example, the the in October, we are doing a specific module about home ownership preparation. And so this more so is, if home, home ownership is your year, is your goal within the next, like three years, like, how do you get your your finances lined up? How do you get your credit lined up? And the actual practical steps, and then at the end of every class, we kind of, yeah, have time where residents can just share out natural resources and things like that. So that’s kind of the gist

J. Robin Moon 21:09

Thank you. So that’s the name “Creating margin for the marginalized” because you’re operating on the folly of the average bell curve. Promising Practice. Linda or Katoya, what promising practice has emerged?

Linda Animashaun  21:27

I would say that the promising practice is the fact that we are using community led data collection and oftentimes at least in academia, and so we have researchers who are trained and then do the data collection, particularly qualitative data collection, focus groups, interviews. And in this case, we are hoping to we have used members of the community. Katoya was one of them, and was the main one, actually, and that just has made a world of difference in terms of, not only does she have the skill set to do the data collection having interviews, and Katoya just has a wonderful personality, on top of having the skill set of having been a teacher and a facilitator and in have being a welcome space for people, as she’s just said, but now she has the context she knows the residents. So there, there are areas where I’m someone like me, I might need to probe because I don’t understand a particular what was being said, whereas katoya can just have a flowing conversation and get a lot of good information, and that’s exactly what she did. And Erin, I don’t know if you’d want to add to that, and Katoya, please share your experience as well?

Erin Bradley  23:01

Yeah, I would just add that she was requested by name by our advisory group of residents. So just having somebody who was trusted, who was had already had a good rapport with the rest of the community members was paramount. So we didn’t just close our eyes and pick a community member to well suited for lots of reasons, but named as someone when we asked, like, Who do you trust in the neighborhood? She was named by multiple people inside that group and out. So that was the primary reason for choosing her to lead that effort. But yeah, Katoya, you want to talk about your experience?

KaToya Sumner  23:42

Sure, it’s, it warms my heart and really puts a smile on my face to know, like I stated a little bit in the intro, my role in this community first started by being the oh, gosh, I don’t know. Maybe I started as a leasing consultant. Then I moved into property. I don’t, I don’t. I have, like, three different titles, but all within this organization. And so the fact that I can tell you that you need to pay rent, and I can tell you the expectations, but you still felt trusted with me once I was no longer an employee there, but still living in the community, I think that speaks volumes. It speaks volumes for the role that I played in the organization, as well as as what you all are saying to my character and to my testament to the residents. So I was very it was very great to do to be the facilitator. I do believe that I have I’m a firm believer in transferable skills, and so my background helped support the role that was needed. And I think it went well. Went very well, and it was nice to see those faces have open conversation about the needs and the changes, and, you know, the progress of the organization as a whole. And to just kind of, I. Informally, be able to get so much from them, just based first on having a relationship. It was an honor, and I’m glad to be the one that could do that for this project, as well as be a voice of the community,

Erin Bradley  25:15

just from a method standpoint, just that it’s so much more efficient and it’s also more effective to adopt this community led version of data collection. When you think about what a regular focus group is, a traditional approach to focus groups, we have a stranger lead a conversation among people before that they try to generate a relationship out of thin air so that people will open up before we have this recorded conversation, we slide what looks like a contract, the consent form, and then we tell everybody, relax and be as honest as you possibly can and expect this high quality data, right? And that just feels like such an unreasonable expectation to me, versus having a conversation it. We didn’t call it a focus group. We referred to it as a group discussion. This discussion is led by a fellow resident. They already know we had food, so it was like chatting over dinner with each other. Of course, they did provide scent, but it was oral consent. We had an infographic version of a consent form that they could have the contract looking one if they wanted, but they got a plain language and visual summary of what those paragraphs of text meant, right? So we wanted everybody to feel informed, but also not to make it strangely formal with with signing a contract before recorded conversation with a stranger, right? So all of that, just those adjustments were very helpful, and we really did see the differences. So Linda did a wonderful job leading the group discussions with our resident advisory group, but the tone was just different. The need to clarify certain things when you are not in that context. It’s just different. I’ll use one example from one of the focus groups. There was a point at which I think somebody referenced a park or something like that, and it was out of the scope of the conversation, but it was important to that person at that moment, and so katoya immediately clocked it. She knew what the park was, or whatever the location that was being described. There had been some trouble there. And she immediately said, like, Oh yes, I know that. I’ve heard of that. And then refer to like, but that’s the city’s responsibility, not Grove Park renewal that could have taken 10 or 15 minutes with Well, what I think I’m hearing you say is, where is this park located? Right? All the things that an outsider would have to do in order to get the context. So what we’re talking about when we have a community member lead, instead of that, that qualitative data collection in particular, but having a community member, there’s just that contextual expertise that we don’t have. So what we’re saying is, when we’re we have it’s easier for us when we’re thinking about technical expertise and then contextual expertise. It’s easier for me as a researcher to teach you what to do than it is for you to teach me to be you, right? So facilitating a conversation, okay, sure we can do that. Those are just like, I mean, it’s not like work, like it’s a skill that you have to develop, but that’s training, like we would do with any entry level. Anyone can learn how to do that. Researchers, other professionals, did not come out of the womb conducting focus groups. Right? Everybody learned at some point, but I but you did when you came out of the womb, start accumulating your your lived experiences. So to ask you to download all of that in me so that I can probe properly and have a nuanced understanding is ridiculous, compared to me teaching you some skills to facilitate a conversation to get the kinds of information, to generate the kind of information that we want. So more efficient. That’s going to be more efficient in the in the training, and it’s also going to be more rigorous when we talk about precision or accuracy of results, versus this obsession, sometimes for people with traditional notions of methodological rigor that end up just being inflexible or unyielding. And so the irony is that your methodological rigor can interfere with the rigor, the precision or accuracy of your results, which that’s the point. That’s why we’re doing any of this to begin with. We want high quality data. So being able to take a step back and not be, not hoard power, or not be or control whatever it is, and it’s different things for different people, but being able to just recognize at any point in the in the process, and I mean all throughout the research process, what’s more important here can. Textual expertise or technical expertise, and then having whoever’s the most appropriate party take the lead, I would never ask a community member like, hey, come do the structural equation modeling. We need you to do hierarchical linear modeling. Like, No, we wouldn’t do it. That’s ridiculous, right? So it’s not an over correction, but like recognizing when as the professional, it is best for everybody, for you to take a step back, because you’re just not the best suited for this particular thing. So that was, we think this approach has promised in particular because it just, it’s just more efficient and ultimately going to be more effective. And it’s not radical in the implementation. It really does, for some people, require more of a radical shift in thinking in perspective, and opening up, opening up the pool of people who are qualified to do this thing in your so it’s really just a mind thing. If you can get over that, get over yourself, potentially, doesn’t make you less important. If a community member leads your data collection. Your value shouldn’t be rooted in your work. You just are inherently valuable. So there’s no threat, you know, for someone else stepping up in that way. But if you can lean into that collaboration, instead of like the strange power dynamic that exists in lots of like research or evaluator or professional and community member like to just let the most qualified person do the job, and in many times, in many instances, it is the community member. I’ll say this one last thing, because we recently presented Katoya, and I presented at a conference in Pittsburgh, and one of the questions kind of confused me a little bit. And then it dawned on me afterward, and I was like, Oh, that makes sense. So, you know, I get up and I say these things, and then we introduce katoya. Katoya speaks, and I some people were confused about why, I’m sure, about why she was the better person to do this, to lead the focus groups like and no one said the quiet part out loud, but it was like, aren’t you both black women like, what like? Why are you wildly unqualified to do this while she is And therein lies the problem, right? The intervention research we talk about surface structure and deep structure, right? So surface structure, all of those, like superficial kinds of things. So I could take a pamphlet design for one group and just change the images and maybe the name right of the names of the people mentioned, that’s surface structure. There’s very superficial things. If I don’t change, like the points of reference in there, I don’t change things that really speak to the culture, right? Norms, language again, points of reference, things like that, then the people are going to recognize it as like you are. This still doesn’t work. Like, this is not for me. This is not designed for me. So in the same way, yes, like, demographically, I match, right, but I don’t live there. They know who the neighbors are, because they all live together. So even being very similar demographically, I or Linda still would not have been the best fit, because we don’t have the context. And so I think it’s important for people to like, recognize, like, that deep structure, that deep dive, and stop just thinking in demographic terms like, Oh, you’ll be fine. Insert me here, because I superficially fit in with everybody else. So I’ll stop there.

KaToya Sumner  33:37

I love to hear Erin get on her soapbox about this, it bleeds with passion. And I just want to say that, as you know, I I hadn’t met Linda yet, but I had I knew Aaron, and to just feel fully supported and to feel so affirmed that like I was the one. I mean, I don’t know, a time I felt more chosen and so, but I took it, you know, humbly and gracefully. And, I mean, I started to, kind of like, try to believe it myself, but I will say from the beginning, you know, I was like, Sure, you know. But then as I sat there and and connect with everyone, it made sense to me too, and so it was just nice to be someone knowing, yeah, sure, I have context and I have the relationship, but to truly feel the most, to feel that that was most valuable for the results needed, and to feel supported by Ian and Linda throughout The process, and to give the guidelines, the structure, all of the things that help make it, you know, work it, it made the biggest difference. So I just want to commend them for pursuing this direction to get the results in the most authentic way.

J. Robin Moon 34:58

Beautifully said. I think our audience, by now, felt and got hit by your spiritual passion on the floor, as I am.Two points to really summarize. One is, yeah, so like the merit based. And by merit, I mean academically, you know, merit based, like, if a focus group goes well, we say, Oh, we have a very skilled facilitator that we brought in from outside. So it’s attributed to that, you know, learned whatever skills, and also, like consent you mentioned, which is interesting, because, like, it often the consent is not there to protect the folks in the room, but it’s really the organization, the person who brought this in, right? So to the idea of assuming, to begin with, that community has the expertise they are the expert, as opposed to we have something to teach, is like it sounds so natural and common sense, but common sensical, but that is not what we see. Point I’m just summarizing saying in different words from what you’ve already said. Number two, I do agree with you. Katoya, like I will say Aaron and Linda and Maureen have come in and just like ripped it apart at IRL, you know? And I remember that day very clearly when Aaron said, you know, why do we say community based is not important? It has to be community led. You know? What you just audience, what you just heard from what Aaron just said. And that took Aaron’s academic researcher, you know, Aaron Linda like we took those particular type of academic researchers to acknowledge, somebody like katoya, somebody like, you know, people in your community. So I think it’s actually both you are a dream team, and we just hope that IRL inspires more of academic scholars like Erin and Linda to do this kind of work. Thank you.

Krystal Lee  36:54

Yeah, katoya, did you have something else to add?

KaToya Sumner  36:56

Just a little bit. I mean, I hate being in person, because that was so beautifully kind of closed. And I just wanted to kind of tie that into Maureen saying, places where people don’t really need me. And I think that this concept is it like community is there. And I think that if people want to find the gyms that can do this type of facilitating and be a voice and find value in the community that it’s worth it to not come in and have the complex to save or do or but to go within and empower the community, even from choosing me to facilitate, but then also having the resident advisory team, you’re giving the voice and the power back to the community to be the change makers, while you utilize your experience network and everything else to make the change. And So Ian, I’m just echoing it all back, but as a community person, it shows the value right back to the community. And you get to empower and embolden people who already are there to feel most welcomed and a part of the mission.

Erin Bradley  38:17

And you started the Katoya, so now I’m gonna be that person too. Last thing. So I feel like the goal for anybody, like any scientist, anybody who is producing knowledge, anybody who’s interested, truly in, like answering the questions, our goal really should be capacity building, right? There are so many things to discover all over the place, right? And so if we can help people learn how to do things like collect their own data, ultimately analyze their own data, if they can answer their own questions, we can move on to the next community who doesn’t have those skills. So like just approaching it as like building capacity along the way, you’re not it’s not it’s not like you’re not going to have a job anymore, if, if you will, if you allow people to maximize or optimize their skills, then suddenly there won’t be enough research to go around for all of us, right? That kind of like zero sum mentality just drags out the process for us getting to these places of discovery and being able to improve health, which, if that’s our goal, then we want to do it as quickly and as efficiently as possible. And ultimately, I would love to see like a community trained up fully in research, we actually had or evaluation. We had a position that we weren’t able to fill, but we were going to have an apprenticeship, right for somebody from start to finish, to learn what we were doing, so that they could do it after we’re gone, right? So that kind of like train the trainer model, or each one, teach one all of that will, it will exponentially increase our reach. So I think thinking long term and not. Just like we don’t have time in our lifetime as researchers, or in our lifetimes as researchers, to be able to get to all of the things but but we could, if we would help move the process along by by getting out of the way. Get out of people’s way, help equip them, come alongside them. I can always come and write a grant, if they if you don’t have time to do that, like I will try to help you pursue this money together. But then I can leave, and you can go on, and you can actually do the work and be trusted to do so. So I’ll stop there.

Krystal Lee  40:35

Thank you so much. I mean, snap see for everything that you all have identified as as the promising practices that have come out of the project that you’re working on, I can tell, as as Katoya mentioned, like Erin, I can see and I can hear your passion for the work. And you know, we’ve talked about like, how you all came to the work, and it’s how it’s obviously so important to you. And one of the things that I know from my personal experience, and we’ve heard in many of these conversations, is that you know the work that you are doing every day and the passion that you bring to that work in trying to create equitable environments, equitable systems and working against systems of oppression can be hard work, right? It’s especially when, when you take your work personally, like some of us do. And so I wonder if you can share for our listeners, you know, what are the ways that you engage in self care as you do this difficult work? Maybe we start with, let’s start with Maureen, and then you can popcorn it to everybody, like, what is what do you do to take care of yourself?

Maureen Sanchez  41:40

Yeah, I think something that I’m trying to do better this year is to have fun. I think as adults, we just lose the ability to play and and I don’t want to outsource that to like social media, you know. So, yeah, I think that’s the short answer is just trying to find ways to have fun and to play more. So I’ll pop it over to Linda.

Linda Animashaun  42:10

Yeah, I have been thinking about this one thing that I will say that is helpful for me, that I need to do more. I should do more of it is just go out for a walk, nature walks without my cell phone. It allows me to process my thoughts, because I have a lot of stuff up here, but I never it never is always have thoughts. And so it gives me the opportunity to process my thoughts fully, and I just feel, you know, I have come to an age where physical activity is also a emotional stability and all of that, not just for your for the looks, but it also helps with your mental well being, and so I know for me, walking, especially when it’s around, greenery, is good for me. I will go to Katoya.

KaToya Sumner  43:13

I have no problem with self care. It’s almost like a hey, everybody else is still here. But yeah, as a as a fitness enthusiast and a fitness instructor, I movement is number one, and then finding fun through movement. So it’s a blend of both of theirs, for sure. My the workout that I actually teach is called pound, and it’s a weighted drumstick rhythmic cardio jam session. I know mouthful, but it’s a ton of fun, and it makes me happy. And, you know, just carving out time to move, to have fun, to put something on your calendar and look forward to. I think those are important for me. Those are the natural ones. The ones that I do have to work a little bit more are for those more internal chill practices to sit, to meditate, to just the little bit more of that internal dive. And so that’s what I have to practice, because I find the value in that a lot, because I can move, but being still is what I think gives a lot back to me, because it is a actual practice that I have to do.

Erin Bradley  44:24

Erin, I would say, for me, I am the opposite. I can chill with the best of them. I could teach a master class on relaxing and luxuriating. I have a massage schedule for this afternoon, so I love a good nap. So I really do. I’m highly introverted, and so, like, all of this is incredibly draining. So I do, I’ll say even just framing first, I think what was most helpful, and this was toward the beginning of our project, and then it ended up being like, followed up with the four pivots. Book that we ended up reading, fighting against something is more draining than working towards something. And so our work didn’t change. But the framing of our work as like, who could clear a path for people to home ownership and housing stability was like a more hopeful we are working towards something than, like, dismantling, fighting structural racism that has been here for generations like that. It’s there’s a real thing. It’s well documented in housing. But to have that be like, are we going to individually, like, as a small project, going to be able to do that? What we can do is work towards something and so like, hope and inspiration, and also being able to mobilize and, like, get people to come along with you towards something positive is easier to like that than to recruit people to fight against something which people just typically don’t want to do. In a general sense, I think that made the work lighter for me, framing it that way? Yeah, just as a matter of balance those things, I would also say, kind of tapping into what Maureen led with, like I would not make it through any of this work without my faith, being able to decompress from a terrible day. And I’ve already done my movies, and I’ve probably walked around shopping, even if I didn’t buy anything. It’s just relaxing for me. I’ve been through the playlist and whatever else, to be able to, like, just recover for the next day. Like, finding some scripture to ground me, being able to be like, Oh, it’s terrible here. Like, what’s going on? Why are people treating each other like this? And to have some like, just solid, like, this is not a surprise. Like this is how it’s the cycles it’s gone throughout, like, but here’s hope so a psalm or something from Proverbs, just some wisdom, some, whatever it is, or even like, what like, truly, what does the Bible say about this thing and being able to, like, bring my mind in alignment, but also settle my spirit, if I’m deeply vexed or disturbed about some of the things I’ve witnessed, has been helpful for me. So I’ll say the combination of those things I’m more likely to lay down than move. I gotta work on that. But definitely being able to, like, lean on relationships and those kinds of things, FaceTiming the little ones almost daily can bring you out of anything, right? That little cartoon character laughing, and, you know, all of those things can can bring you back where you need to be.

J. Robin Moon 47:32

Thank you so much. Erin, I think I’m going to quote that in the podcast notes. It’s much. How do you say it? I’m going to go and listen to it again. Much easier to work towards something than work fight against something. Beautifully said. Team ATL Grove Park. You are a special team. Thank you so much for being here, and we look so forward to sharing this episode with our listeners. Thank you for all your insights.

Linda Animashaun  48:02

Thank you for having us. Thank you so much, IRL.

Maureen Sanchez  48:06

We love you, IRL, yes.

Krystal Lee  48:11

So happy to have you on our IRL podcast. Thank you for sharing the lessons that you’ve learned. Thank you for sharing your promising practices. Thank you for being here with us. And thank you to our listeners. Listeners, we’d love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the interdisciplinary research leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts or leave questions for Team ATL Grove Park, and don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care you.

Mandy LeBreche  49:05

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you our listeners for being a part of this important conversation. Ian.

A Conversation with Team Louisiana (Cohort 4)

Season 2, Episode 7 | November 6, 2025

Speakers: Krystal Lee, Mandy LeBreche, Bruce Reilly, J. Robin Moon, Ashley Wennerstrom

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:22

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and my co host is the inimitable J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey Robin!

J. Robin Moon 00:45

Hi Krystal. There is only one J. Robin Moon.

Krystal Lee  00:50

There is! And I’m so glad to know you! As you know Robin. This season of Promising Practices, we are exploring the experiences, the stories and the lessons learned by our IRL fellows and alumni, and today, we are so excited to have representatives of Cohort 4 with us from Team Louisiana. I am so pleased to welcome Bruce Riley and Ashley Wennerstrom. Welcome friends.

J. Robin Moon 01:16

We’re so glad to have you here with us. Before we ask you to tell us about yourselves in your work, we invite you to engage with us in one of our signature, IRL promising practices, checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So at the beginning of our meetings internally, we do a quick check in to help us continuously build connections in our beloved community. So here’s a check in question for you today. What is the one home cooked dish that you love eating, growing up? You’re from Louisiana… we had to do a food question. I’m gonna start so I grew up. My childhood was in South Korea, and apparently, if you can believe it, I mean, if you know how much and how well I eat these days, I used to not eat like I would refuse. The first word I learned is, in Korean, “I don’t want to eat” before I learned how to say “mommy”. But so my mom would make this, you know, fried egg, sunny side up, put in the white rice and soy sauce and sesame oil, and mix it, and sometimes with the seaweed on top. That will be the only thing that I ate, and I still eat it. And I have a very fond memory of that. What about you, Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:41

Yeah, I had the pleasure and privilege of growing up in Kingston, Jamaica, and, yeah, it’s everything. And one of my favorite things that my mom makes is oxtail. Jamaican oxtail is unlike any oxtail that I’ve ever seen, had, heard about and i’m so happy that these days my mom lives close enough to make it whenever I want. I just go to the store, buy my oxtail, take it over to my mom and she makes it and it’s phenomenal with rice and peas, fried plantain, everything… it’s phenomenal. What about you Bruce?

Bruce Reilly  03:19

Well, I mean, I grew up in southern New England, and honestly, my favorite home cooked meal would be myself making Kraft mac and cheese out of the box. And however, you know my my lady love grew up here and last night she started making these beans, and I didn’t even know about beans until, you know, I moved to Louisiana about 15 years ago, and the house just smells like awesome, and that’s for dinner tonight. So I get a little bit of a proxy love for the home cook cooking around here through her so shout out to Erica.

Ashley Wennerstrom  04:01

All right, well, I think I’m up. So I grew up in Colorado, but my mom is from Texas, and my favorite thing that we would have every year for Thanksgiving is cornbread dressing. And for those who are from the south, you probably know what I’m talking about. People from the north think of it as stuffing that goes along with your Thanksgiving turkey, but it’s just absolutely delicious. And there was always great debate in the family about which member could do it the best. And I think everybody agreed that my mom’s was the best. And so I now continue that tradition every year. I always make cornbread dressing on Thanksgiving.

J. Robin Moon 04:32

Nice, amazing.

Krystal Lee  04:34

The food competitions are good for me.

J. Robin Moon 04:38

That was a good check in question, I might say so myself.

Krystal Lee  04:42

Good job, Robin. Ashley, would you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, and then we’ll popcorn it over to Bruce.

Ashley Wennerstrom  04:51

Sure! So I would describe myself as a very proud New Orleanian who strongly values community, whether that’s just hanging out and talking to my neighbors, participating in professional communities or creating community by having my friends over. I’m someone who really values relationships deeply, and I really define myself by my relationships in a lot of ways. Try very hard to be a supportive partner, sister, friend, colleague, teacher, and very proud to be a dog mom, very passionate about public health, as everybody knows, and equity and justice. And I absolutely love live music. Love to travel and just very inspired by creativity and try to cultivate joy every day.

Bruce Reilly  05:33

Yeah, Ashley is really good at cultivating joy. We have a few folks like that around these parts, as you might guess. I used to be a production guy and a DJ lighting designer in New York City, and I threw it all away to go to law school in New Orleans and to work kind of full time in this world of criminal justice advocacy, because I was incarcerated for 12 years and so many people and community that I knew and connected with was dealing with so many of the other issues that you know are remnants of slavery in this country. So I came down here, and part of my transition to here was joining up with this guy, Norris Henderson, who everybody in our world knows. And we had met prior to me enrolling in law school down here. And he had found an organization called Voice Of The Experience (VOTE), initially in Angola penitentiary, VOTE is the acronym, and also assist organizations the 501 c4 voters organized to educate that does like political elections kind of work. And so I’m the Deputy Director of both organizations. And you know, we’ve grown to be a real, a bit of a minor juggernaut, I guess, in this realm. And you know, we have chapters in New Orleans, Lafayette and Baton Rouge, and we do a lot of policy work, we do a lot of community organizing, we do elections work, we try to get decent people in office, and we try to, like, spark public debate with speaking the truth. And so the people that know me know that, A, I bring the creativity and the fun, because that’s kind of been in my bones from the get go. But B, I’ll try to bring a lawyerly, deep kind of analysis to things as well and merge them together.

J. Robin Moon 07:17

I love your introductions, both. Thank you so much. I think we’re gonna say, talk about health equity a lot in this conversation. But let’s start. Bruce, would you tell us a story of how you came to health equity? You already started telling us, health equity work and what health equity looks like to you.

Bruce Reilly  07:37

You know, it’s funny. I didn’t think of what this answer would be until you literally just asked it, and I, and to me, it’s obvious there was a guy named Ron who was locked up with me when I was awaiting trial. I was waiting trial for three years. And, I started reading the books, the law books, and one of the people who also was doing that was, was Ron. And you know, along with his criminal charge, and you know, I had my criminal charge, he also had a serious health issue. And it was similar to my my brother, my older brother, had ulcerative colitis, which eventually turned into colon cancer, you know, late 20s, early 30s and and so Ron was dealing with ulcerative colitis, so I had a little bit of a felt like a connection to what he was dealing with, and I was seeing how hard it was for him to just to get seen, to get checked out, to get this, to get that. And Ron wasted down to probably about 100 pounds or something. And you know, they were like saying, You’re faking it, you know, all this stuff. And you know, they wouldn’t even give him food because they would say, you can, you can make it to the chow hall. And so through his, his saga, you know, I started looking into the laws around people who are incarcerated getting access to health care and, you know, and learned a couple… One key basic thing that I share with with medical students and anyone else who listen, is the basic legal standard is either the prison or jail is accused of excusable neglect. “Oh, wow, you had a brain aneurysm. Who could know, right?” And he died, and it’s excusable. And then the other one would be deliberate indifference, and that means we knew you had a brain clot or whatever, and we didn’t treat it, and we deliberately were indifferent. And then they’re liable, but they’re not liable under, excuse me, neglect. And so the way that jails and prisons get around the legal standard, and not necessarily knowingly, right, but they refuse to test. And so that’s the biggest issue with the health equity and for people incarcerated across the country, is not being able to get testing. And then we get to another standard, like, after I’ve got testing, well, then what? So that’s, you know, that’s kind of a little background of how I learned about the inequity around the country. And that knowledge came to me back in around, like, 94 maybe 93, 94 so I’ve been sort of struggling with this inequity. Ever since it

J. Robin Moon 10:01

That sets us up with four for a very important conversation today. Thank you so much, Bruce.

Bruce Reilly

Ash, how’d you come to this?

Ashley Wennerstrom  10:07

There are a lot of different ways I could tell the story, but I think my interest in health equity started very indirectly. So I first moved to New Orleans back in 2003 and I was an AmeriCorps volunteer working at Habitat for Humanity and one of the home owners in our program. And kind of the way that the Habitat for Humanity program works, I’m sure many folks have heard of it, but the idea is that people who are low income, partner with volunteers and other homeowners to build their homes with their own sweat equity, and then they purchase their homes at low cost, with no interest loans. So I was working on this program, and one of the home owners in our program was a man named John Thompson, and he had just been released from wrongful incarceration on death row. He had been incarcerated for 18 years, and I remember at the tender age of 23 being very young and clueless about how the world really worked, and when I saw this man exiting death row after wrongful incarceration, it just really stuck with me. It was really hard to believe that someone could ever be in that situation, that we had a system that was so broken that somebody who was completely innocent could be incarcerated for something they didn’t do. And I just kept thinking, “gosh, you know what? If he hadn’t gotten free, he could have lost his life”. I was very inspired by that, and then also with my experience in working for Habitat for Humanity, it was very clear to me that there was something structural, something very wrong going on, because every single person in our program was a person of color. And so just sort of seeing the inequities in this city in a way that had just never struck me before anywhere else I had been. I decided I want to study public health, so I went back to school. I went to the University of Arizona, which has a really strong emphasis on health equity and community programs. Was lucky to have a lot of fabulous mentors there who introduced me to the concepts of community partner and participatory research health equity. I got to start working a lot with community health workers, and so that’s sort of how I entered the field.

Krystal Lee  12:05

I’m so grateful that you all are sharing these stories. We’ve talked about the impact that stories can have and how stories are… form the foundation of the systems that are at work through the mental models that they create. We had a conversation with one of our storytelling experts, gurus, Luis Ortega, from Storytellers for Change, and I’ve learned so much from him, and in hearing your stories, it really solidifies some of the things that I’ve learned. So thank you all for sharing. Let’s shift a little bit to talk about your IRL experiences. Ashley, tell me about how you would describe your experience with IRL.

Ashley Wennerstrom  12:44

I loved it. That’s the simple version. The longer version is, you know, we came to this experience, I would say, based on our relationship. So Bruce, who’s with us today, and then our other partner, Andrea and I all had known each other for many years and worked together in various capacities, but the IRL fellowship really gave us a chance to come together in a more structured way, just and frankly, bought out our time so that we could get together on a weekly basis, talk about ideas, develop research, execute that research. So it was really, it was a special experience. I will say it was challenging, because the focus of our project was related to health care in prisons, and part of what we and jails as well. But part of what we wanted to do was actually go into some of the carceral facilities and talk to people who are incarcerated, talk to people who are providing health care inside. But our fellowship started in September of 2019 and so by the time we had just gotten up and running and gotten IRB approval and all these wonderful things, COVID hit, of course, in March of 2020, so we had to shift our focus a little bit, but I still think we were able to do some really impactful work. So that was great. And then I also just tremendously enjoyed working with folks from all of the other teams. I found it so inspirational just to see the relationships that other folks had as well, and just learn a lot about the various approaches to health equity, all of the different topics, or sometimes things that I didn’t think about on a day to day as being part of health equity, but are tremendously important. So it was, it was a lovely experience for me.

Bruce Reilly  14:14

You know, to Ashley’s point, you know, COVID was tough in so many regards, you know, for everybody’s work. So, you know, I think I can only imagine, maybe how it is for a cohort that’s not straddling covid issues, the ability to get together and really, if someone’s laughing behind a mask versus laughing without a mask, it’s a very different experience, you know, and the ability to kind of remember somebody and their name and build that, that camaraderie. But like Ash said, despite that, I think we were able to really be a good, strong cohort. I think our prison work was, I think, very real for people. Everybody, I think, had a strong connection to our work. And, you know. Were kind of the class clowns as well. So that’s that’s always a fun role to play. But, yeah, it was a great opportunity to to kind of credible-ize our work together. And, you know, like Ashley said, we all had our strains around this. Like Andrea Armstrong is a law professor who’s really known for her work around prison conditions and the scholarship there and historical aspect. And Ashley, obviously with, with her public health background and community health worker work. And then myself with, you know, it’s we had a nice combination of of skills. And, you know, in a lot of ways it was easy, because this is just like what we nerds like to do.

Ashley Wennerstrom  15:43

I was just gonna add to that. I think one thing that was interesting and different about our team is that I feel like a lot of teams experienced the very sort of classical challenge in community academic partnered research, of having this real distinction between these are the academics over here, and this is the community partner over here, and everything’s so different in the way that we view the world. And while technically we do have those distinctions based on where we sit, Bruce being the community partner, and Andrea and I being the academic or research partners, the truth is, I don’t think any of us ever saw each other any differently. Again, largely because we have existing relationships. We know each other really well, but I’ve never thought of Bruce as exclusively a community person, because he is absolutely brilliant, and his mind works like a traditional researcher in many ways. And then I can’t speak for Bruce, but I suspect he didn’t really think of us as being the traditional academics, either, because he knows that Andrea and I aren’t those that are sitting behind our desks all day, every day. We’re people who have a lot of experience visiting prisons or working on prison conditions. You know, we show up to community meetings. So I think that we’re perceived as being part of the community as well. I don’t know. Bruce, do you think that’s accurate…?

Bruce Reilly  16:56

Yeah, I think that’s a topic that kept coming up, right in a way that we were often sort of explaining our relationship to others as a you know, and people kind of wondering how it is that we interact, and I think, you know, and knowing the goals of the program to really have that community leadership in the research, and the idea that, you know, maybe researchers would take cues from the community, rather than The other way around, and and we were able to be that because, I think partially, maybe partially because my mind thinks like a researcher. But I think even more, VOTE is a very strong organization and has a lot of credibility and leadership. And for Ashley and Andrea to be part of our work, it like nobody’s gonna grab the tail of VOTE and just start swinging it around and leading the direction. And maybe I’m a little bit a lot to handle. Fortunately, I got a couple partners who can handle me. But we as an org are pretty strong and straightforward, because we’ve been through so much, and we’ve made it to a space where it’s like, look, I’m going to get on the microphone, or I’m going to, you know, be part of a circle, and, damn right, you’re going to listen. I fought my ass off to get here. And so I think that strength is something that, you know, we wish and we hope and we try to create more organizations around the country that have that strength, particularly from marginalized communities. You’re like an army of Karens, and you’re a bunch of like, wealthy white [inaudible] maybe that’s built into your DNA. But you know, obviously a lot of our work around public health and such is not from the army of Karens. It’s from people that are marginalized, either politically or socio economically.

J. Robin Moon 18:39

Yeah, you definitely make it, made for a unique team, and even unfortunately, the topic and the population you worked with, also unfortunately is a unique one in our society and cohort 4 2019 through 2022, we call, we call internally. Cohort 4, [our] pandemic, baby. So it was really fresh. I mean, we’ve seen firsthand how frustrated you were as a cohort and your team. So your project, I mean, the title of your project, by the way, is “Examining the effects of carceral exposure and health services use: Implications for policy and service coordination”. Can you, I am sure there are many, many, many stories. Can you share one story that stuck with that, that has stuck with you in terms of how, like, what kind of challenges and difficulties through the pandemic that your community, your community being the community, you know, the Youth Center had to go through.

Bruce Reilly  19:47

Well, the one that jumps out for me is obviously COVID happened, you know, for everybody and for us here in Louisiana, with the massive Gulag system of people who are incarcerated. Including 1000s of people under ICE detention in our system. And you know, we instantly were thinking about people on the inside. You know, we didn’t need to hear a story about a cruise ship or whatever, but we know what it’s like to be in these close quarters where you don’t have six feet, nor do you have the option of six feet, period. And so, you know, we quickly set up a, you know, we end up calling it Mission Possible, this massive in, inside, outside communication system using the, it’s called J pay. It’s, you know, this prison communication system, like emails, basically. And, you know, we started posting what people were sharing with us about the conditions and the policy changes and the quarantines and this and that. And, you know, and we had it very structured on our website for journalists and policy makers and public health people, whatever. And we have some very quick, immediate demands of the governor of the Department of Health. And so we were doing this work, and we’re trying to, you know, help people understand this story and try to, you know, create some action. And then meanwhile, you know, Ashley and Andrea and myself, we were already in this world of public health and jails and prisons, and so we, you know, there are a variety of things we did. And I think that was, you know, we were kind of like our version of Seal Team Six, maybe, where it’s like, “we’re just ready”. And, you know, in this case, you know, one thing that we had managed to do was, you know, we we used some of our money to hire up a woman who to make an animated video of like, what transmission is like on the inside and why we need changes. We basically wrote the the report for the Governor’s Commission around the issue with but it was like a variety of people. And any of us who’ve ever worked on a report by, let’s say 10 people, there’s usually, like, two that write the whole dang thing, and the other eight say, “Oh, that’s great”. And maybe they add a few things important. But, you know, Andrea myself, and you know, one other person I’m thinking of, like, really did a lot of the legwork on that report. And so just like, a lot of these little things. And so, in a way, there’s just us having this sort of, you know, standing squad ready to go. Was, was the most memorable part for me, I think.  Ash?

Ashley Wennerstrom  22:13

Oh gosh. I think that’s a that’s a pretty good description.Leave it at that.

Krystal Lee  22:19

I’m struck by the way that stories are such a big part of the work that you are describing, and I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the promising practice or practices that you have seen emerge from your project, from your work, through your IRL project.

Ashley Wennerstrom  22:41

I honestly, I think the biggest thing is to base your project on relationships, because research funding comes and goes. Priorities change all the time, but if you have solid relationships with the people that you’re working with, if you’re committed to the larger goal of health equity, and particularly with a specific population or in a specific area, you’re going to achieve that in the long term. So I think just just really focusing on relationships, and I mean, I think it’s worth exploring a little bit what that means in the context of our work together. I mentioned earlier that we had all known each other for a really long time, but the way that we came together, I think is interesting. So I had an experience many years ago where I had a dear friend who was incarcerated and became very sick while he was locked up and he did not receive appropriate treatment. It took him six months to finally be diagnosed with liver cancer, and by the time he got his diagnosis, he was in stage four, very, very ill. He also was somebody who was wrongfully incarcerated, and his conviction was overturned, and by the time he got out, he was just very, very ill. And he ended up coming home with me, and he we did home hospice for him, and he passed away at my home about three days later, but as part of that experience, when he was in my home, several of his friends and loved ones came to visit and say their goodbyes, which was a really beautiful experience. And Bruce’s colleague, Norris Henderson, who I just mentioned a couple minutes ago, was one of those people who came over. And so I knew who Norris was, but I’d never personally met him before, and I remember shaking his hand over my friend’s bed. So that was an important part of establishing a relationship, establishing trust. And I went back to work a couple days later, and the story had been in the paper, and one of my colleagues, who’s a physician, came to me and said, “Hey, I saw your story in paper, and what’s all about?”. And she said, “You know, I just had this medical student approach me who was really interested in developing some health care services for people after incarceration, and do you want to help us with that?” And I said, “I have no idea about medical services. I’m not a clinician. I’m a public health person, but I do know about research. And I said, why don’t we start by interviewing some people who’ve been incarcerated about their experiences with healthcare in the transitional period?” And so we called Norris and said, “Hey, Norris, do you want to work on this?” And he said, “Yes”. And so he helped us recruit people to participate in the study, and we interviewed men and women and learned all about the experiences they had. And we decided that we wanted to go a little bit further with that. So a couple of things happened. My colleague, who’s, or I should say, our colleague, who’s the physician, Dr Anjali Niyogi, ended up designing an entire clinic called the formerly incarcerated transition clinic, which is still operating today, which was amazing. And then we also decided that we wanted to spend a little bit more time kind of figuring out how we could all work together as people with with public health experience, people who are physicians, people with experiences of incarceration, or how can we sort of develop a stronger policy and research agenda as well as develop this sort of clinical practice with the fit clinic? So Norris and I ended up applying for a grant together. So we got a small grant from PCORI to form what we called, then the Prisoner to Patient project, or P2P as we lovingly called it, and we started doing a series of community forums. And so Norris would invite VOTE members. We would invite public health folks, and we all kind of got together and talked about, where do we want to go with this? And this was over the course of many, many years. But Bruce got involved, and so that’s where Bruce and I met, and ended up having great conversations, and ended up becoming friends. And then I met Andrea, unfortunately, another situation where someone, Glenn Ford, had come out of incarceration after many years, wrongful incarceration, I should clarify. He’d been on death row for 30 years, and he also was diagnosed with cancer just a few months after he got out, and she and I and several other people helped care for him as he passed away. And so I met Andrea in that context, and so having these sort of long term and also very deeply emotional experiences with folks really cemented our relationship. I’ll let Bruce talk about how he knew Andrea, but the main point to understand is that we’re all clearly very deeply committed to this work, willing to invest a lot of time in it and invest in each other, get to know one another. So when this opportunity came up, it was kind of a natural fit that we would apply together and be able to do something and again, you know, research projects come and go, things change. We know that sometimes you start at point A and think you’re going to get to point B, and you end up at point z instead. And that’s totally fine. And I think that’s kind of what happened with us. But because we had the solid foundation of shared commitment of friendship, of relationship, we knew that we were going to be okay, kind of no matter what happened.

Bruce Reilly  27:11

Yeah, and I think some of the practices that that come out of those relationships is, you know, quickly, knowing when you know, for instance, when I get an email about, you know, this or that, or, like, medical care in, you know, in prisons or whatever, you know, I kind of my go to team, and it’s like, okay, who, you know, who, what are the other heads that I want to bring to the table and whose brains would want to pick and and, you know, how might we implement a program and design it, etcetera. And it’s funny, because, like, I think for a while, I kept mistaking or accidentally adding Anjali, you know, Dr Niyogi, onto our team emails. I was like, “Oh yeah, I forget you’re not on this IRL team”. She was like, but I think about like other people who take an attorney, Nishi Kumar, who I met like when she was first starting out after law school with one of our comrade organizations, the Promise of Justice Initiative. And she ended up working on the medical lawsuit at Angola penitentiary. Now she’s with a group called the Medical Justice Alliance, and so she’s sort of part of the, the sort of go to team, and, you know, and I get inquiries from different parts of the country at times, like recently, someone’s, you know, was working on following up to this, this bill in Colorado that got vetoed, which is about these co pays that they charge people when they’re incarcerated, which becomes a deterrent. And so when I’m thinking about like, you know, what strategies they might deploy, and they’re calling me for this reason, because I’m sharing lessons learned from our own wins and losses along these similar things, and then just trying to think through what they might be able to try to do and who they might bring together to do it with. And Ashley taught me so much about doing research and doing forums and bringing people together for focus groups, and how one might do that. And so it’s been the ability to educate people, I think, is the number one practice, and bring people into the circle, and keep expanding the circles more like Olympic rings or something. And now I’m constantly whether it’s Anjali asking, Ashley asking, or Marcia Glass asking, or somebody asking, like, Okay, we want to do this thing for our med students or our public health students, or to get them aware so they’re not 35 years old going, “oh my goodness, there’s this whole hole of health inequity that I had no idea was happening”. So we try to get them out of the gate, understanding that this is a space that you might do good work in if your career goes this direction and or at least, perhaps volunteer in that direction.

J. Robin Moon 29:41

So interesting. Every episode we have to talk about promising practices is nothing about research, nothing about methodology, nothing about how to make it more rigorous and whatever, whatever that means, I’m hearing circle, concentric circle of relationship and trust that grows. That’s your promising practice. So my natural question is, what’s been the post IRL future for you? What’s What have you been up to since 2022 and are you together? Are you working separately? Tell us…

Bruce Reilly  30:16

Well, we did just apply for another grant, kind of, in a way, to continue the work, you know, real related, but not like connected, you know. You know, VOTE is looking for a large grant to do work that’s themed around the public health impacts of incarceration and the work that we do. And for me, it’s something I’ve been trying to move the community. You know, that does this work in the political community for years around this idea that, you know, incarceration and jails and such need to be seen through a public health lens, and jails can be seen as like a triage space for trauma and homelessness and addiction and, you know, and mental health, and we need to look at it in that way. Like, what would you do if you, let’s say you were a mental health provider and you had someone for seven days, seven days only. Let’s not pretend you’re going to set up this stupid once a month, we’re going to meet and blah, blah, blah. And people need to get out of their their wrong thinking about what you can do, and then start like, thinking realistically what what’s possible. And so for me, a lot of the work that I’ve been doing has been around, whether it be political candidates or elected officials and other organizations, getting us to get to a realistic space of how we might help things. And it’s not going to be done by just a bunch of lawyers setting up a legal structure or judges deciding, like, “I sentence you to healthcare. I sentence you to addiction recovery”. No, it needs to have these other people in the social services, in the medical fields to extend their expertise. Of like, what you know, what do you think might work. So I mean on the day to day, I mean, got 30 staff, and I’ve already had 10 people walk by and ask if I’m on the phone or something.I love the kind of the hamster wheel of it all. In some ways, there’s a lot of diversity, at least personally, in what I do, and I really enjoy that, and I like working with teams. But I think what we have not necessarily started, but with our IRL crew here, and with FIT clinic and Anjali and community health workers that we have in our community, Danielle Metz, when it’s a thing that we’re continuing to move forward and try to expand to the point where we have people like mayoral candidates and the sheriff, you know, speaking from the proper lectern on this subject matter. So it’s not necessarily the solutions are right here in front of us, but at least we’re talking about getting to the solution instead of just we need to whack people over the head harder, and then they’ll, they’ll learn, you know, anyone who’s a parent knows that that doesn’t actually work.

Ashley Wennerstrom  33:00

Okay, yeah. And from my perspective, just thinking the last several years since IRL ended, one simple thing is we published a few papers from our IRL work. You know how publishing is. It always takes quite a while, and longer than one might hope for it to but we did publish a couple of papers. So we were excited about that. Bruce alluded to it, but yeah, we did just send it a letter of intent for another RWJF grant, which we’re supposed to hear about whether we’re invited for a full proposal this week. So fingers crossed. We’ll let you know…

Ashley Wennerstrom  33:35

We are taking bets, I’m guessing Friday at 10am we’ll see if I win, but I will say one thing that has come out of the work for me is some of the stuff that I have learned from Bruce in terms of community organizing. So we haven’t really talked about it, because it’s not space and we don’t have enough time. But the vast majority of my work is actually not related to incarceration. Most of what I do is working on developing the community health worker workforce. And I really see community health workers as people who are agents of health equity, of folks who are doing health outreach, health education advocacy on behalf of their communities, but I feel like I’ve just really been able to apply a lot of the lessons that Bruce taught me to some of that work, some of the things that we did in our fellowship. One one item was we testified in front of the legislature, and to me, that was absolutely terrifying. That is not a space that I ever thought I would be and Bruce and Andrea do this all the time. They’re completely comfortable. But I learned a lot about the importance of preparation, and especially because I sit in a place where I’m not allowed to advocate for any particular law or bill, but I can provide education. So I learned about how to do that, and since then, I believe, three times testified in legislative committees about issues related to community health workers. So learned a lot there. So I really value that I’ve been able to take some of the lessons from this fellowship and apply it in a different space that’s also a health equity space.

Bruce Reilly  34:56

Ashley is an amazing testifier, very efficient. She’ll very to the point gets her stuff across. Doesn’t use

35:03

a whole lot of…

Bruce Reilly  35:07

shaking in the toes. It’s all on video and recorded for people that want to talk her down. But now she’s, she’s great at it. And I, personally, I’ve been saying for a long time, and I’ll continue to say it, we need more public health and medical providers to give those testimonies and and wear their credentials proudly on their sleeve and say, Look, this is my estimation, or my professional opinion on this subject matter. And because so much of these legislators, and now we’re seeing it so much, maybe on the national level, so many of them are just kind of shooting from the hip, like there are a couple guys sitting on the back of a pickup truck at a gas station, and they’re not basing their decisions on any kind of research or facts or expert opinions. They’re just basing it on their emotional fit of fury at the moment, and that’s how so much of our laws are passed, and it’s really no different than 150 years ago, just grabbing somebody off the street and driving them down to the tree and hanging them up while everybody celebrates. And Ashley, like nicely, used the term wrongfully convicted, referring to like John Thompson, Glen Ford, and it applies to a lot of people. But the real the old fashioned term, is framed. Like these are people who are framed for their there was evidence of their exoneration, that they didn’t do it and it was hidden. I’m standing on my desk. I’m staring at a book “Killing Time”, which is about John Thompson. We call him JT, about his case. It’s great, and it’s very straightforward, easy to read. You’re like, wow, this is how the legal system ever worked. Never mind in the 80s, 90s, 2000s and right below it is a book “Solitary” by Albert Woodfox talking about the injustices that he dealt with over years. And as you mentioned earlier, Robin, like storytelling. I mean, a lot of folks around here are great storytellers, and you know, and it needs to be done at times, I think, in a lengthy and well understood way. But sometimes we got to get really crafty at being quick and to the point, and that’s where our doctors come in handily.

Ashley Wennerstrom  37:08

We try. I’m glad you said that, though, Bruce, because it reminded me of something else I wanted to mention that we’ve been doing again you alluded to but I want to be very explicit about what this looks like. We have a session every year about health and incarceration for our second year medical students. And so Bruce comes in, Dr Nyogi, who we’ve discussed, as well as the community health workers, Daniel Metz and Haki Sekua, who work at the fit clinic, come in and they talk about their experiences, what it looks like to care for people who are incarcerated, which is very interesting, because for Dr Nyogi, she works at a hospital that’s the contract hospital for the state. So when people are too sick to receive care within a prison, they come out to University Medical Center. So she talks about what it’s like to see those patients, the needs that they have, and all of their unique challenges, challenges of coordinating care between the external system and the carceral system, and then Danielle and Haki talk about their own personal experiences of healthcare while incarcerated, and then the experiences of helping people in their transitional period and sort of getting them connected with primary care, what it looks like to help people get access to medication. And we consistently get incredible feedback from that session every year. All of the students love hearing from people who are directly impacted. So that’s really powerful. And I do think that matters a lot in reshaping the narrative around healthcare and incarceration and just incarceration in general, and as we’re talking about telling stories, I think that that’s one of the most important things we can do when we’re thinking about issues related to incarceration, is humanize people. I feel like so often, and Bruce can, of course, speak to this better than I can, but I feel like so often, the narrative that we have around people who are incarcerated is they’re bad, you know, they did something wrong. Let’s lock them up and send them away. Well, it’s a very different scenario when that person comes into your hospital or into your clinic and you see them as a human being. It’s a very different scenario for me, as someone who has a friend who’s incarcerated. Every time I go to Angola and I sit in a visiting room, I don’t see bad people. I see human beings who are there with their families. I see guys who are sitting there with their children, sitting on their laps and playing games with their kids. I see guys who are hugging their mom for the first time, sometimes in months, and it completely changes the way that we think about our carceral system. What the purpose of it is, are we there, you know, to punish people, or are we trying to actually rehabilitate people? And most importantly, why are people there in the first place?

J. Robin Moon 39:30

I mean, that’s because of the mental model underneath that which you know, the wrong doing, let’s say, equals wrong a bad person, so that we’re not able to distinguish the two, and like we look at those humans, as you know, fundamentally different from the other good people, right?

Bruce Reilly  39:55

One thing that’s great about anyone who’s familiar with science or medicine or you can’t treat one part of the body on its own right. You can’t just look at some impact. You gotta understand how all these things work together. And whether you’re a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner or whether you’re a neurosurgeon or something, there’s so many parts that work together. But, and I say that to say when it comes to people committing crimes, right? No one necessarily asked, what happened before that, and what happened before that, what happened before that, what happened before that? And then you start to get an understanding of like, wow, we need to make some structural changes to our society so we don’t keep having these similar situations, you know? And one thing that I learned, you know, from a from a undocumented type of research project that I was part of was I had all these stories of people on the inside, and so many people trusted me, I think, for a variety of reasons, but partially because I was like the law guy and so but you know, people would come back to prison. Sometimes maybe they’re facing a parole violation or a new charge or probation violation, and they get what happened? And, you know, they want to tell me the nuts and bolts of the crime, right? Like, oh, I didn’t do this or that. Blah, blah, blah. They got me on this, but not on that. And, I mean, what happened before that? Because I was partially curious, not, you know, hey, I wanted to help you with your situation. But also, like, I’m trying to get out of prison. I’m also trying to learn about my community and my society at large. And you know, then I started to see various patterns of what led people to come back to prison after having been through the rigmarole. And from the time that many of us were teenagers, when we really kind of fell off into the ditch, or in this case, people that might have been in their 30s or 50s even fell back into the ditch. You see these other structural things around health care and housing and employment and trauma? Yeah, I mean, it’s just unfortunate that, you know, we have people that still just want to look at that one end game crime situation and not bother to look back and at the broader circumstances and want to fix that. It’s almost like they want those crimes to happen so they can then do those other things that happen after that.

J. Robin Moon 42:06

Yeah, thank you. Well.

Krystal Lee  42:10

Thank you all for for sharing your stories. I think one, one point that I take away, of many, that I take away from our conversation this morning is how important context is to the specific circumstance that we are discussing. The circumstances surrounding a particular issue are… it’s valuable to explore those as well. Thank you. Thank you both for for sharing so deeply this morning. we are going to change gears a little bit as we close our conversation, just to talk about change. So one of the core beliefs of this podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler when she says, All that you touch, you change, and all that you change changes you will you tell us, please, how IRL, our beloved community has changed you, and how you think that you have changed the program and the community that you’re serving.

Bruce Reilly  43:15

I mean, I think for me, it was an opportunity to realize that my community based work can have an impact on people in academia, not just theoretically, but actually. And so that, in turn, helps me orient sometimes the activities that I do and say, like, Okay, this can be worthwhile over here. I’m not just spinning wheels or doing clout for clout sake, or something like I want to if there’s no impact, I got other things to do. And so IRL was a great opportunity for that, and and I definitely can see some of that continuing

Ashley Wennerstrom  43:55

For me I would say, you know, I have often felt like academic work can be very isolating, and I don’t have anybody else at my institution who does the exact same types of things that I do on a day to day basis. And sometimes I try to describe my work to my colleagues, and they look at me like they don’t quite understand, which is fine, because I certainly don’t understand the things they do either. But it was really nice to just enter into a space without having to feel like I had to explain what I was doing or why I was just very clear, we were all there for the same reason. So I left feeling very inspired. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like I learned a lot about other aspects of health equity that I didn’t know much about. So that was really exciting. And then as far as how we may have changed our community. I really do hope that we drew attention to the importance of rethinking the issue of mass incarceration and how to address it, and I hope that we brought some humanity to people who are incarcerated, in the eyes of our colleagues. And again, I really hope that people have come to understand. The importance of relationships and developing long term work. I hope that we model that.

J. Robin Moon 45:04

Well, you absolutely have Ashley and Bruce.

Bruce Reilly  45:09

Well, thanks. I mean, there’s only one MacArthur Genius on our team…

J. Robin Moon 45:14

Oh, you know, MacArthur Genius. I’ve heard of it. Always our final question, working towards equity and against systems of oppression can take its toll, as you all know. Can you please share with our listeners, in a brief words, how you engage in self care as you do this difficult work.

Bruce Reilly  45:35

Mine’s easy. I have a big costume closet, and if I come to a city near you, I’m going to raid your vintage or thrift stores looking to add to it. If you know any like crazy, like 1970s ladies who had, like, some some cool, weird stuff, like, I need it. And I also dance professionally. Mind you. For the the NBA, New Orleans Pelicans senior dance team has me on their squad. We dance on center court one game per month, and I’m looking forward to my second season when the Pelicans win the NBA title and I’m in the finals dancing. So there you go.

Ashley Wennerstrom  46:17

That just reminded me of when we interviewed for the IRL fellowship, and the first question was that we had to introduce one another. And I remember saying that Bruce was a really good dancer, and they looked at me kind of funny, like they were not expecting to hear me say that. Okay, so for self care, I recently heard a funny thing, that is, if you are over the age of 40, you fall into one of four camps, and it’s either you’re into plants, making sourdough bread, pickle pickle ball, or weight lifting and protein. And so I would say I’m firmly in plants, yes, with a side of sourdough. I don’t actually make sourdough, but I do like to bake, and I am moving towards weight lifting and protein. I’ve been working out a bunch lately, trying to get strong. And then I also absolutely love walking my dog, a little 45 pound, adorable mutt named Goose, and she’s a sweet baby angel, so I spend a lot of time with her.

J. Robin Moon 47:17

Yeah, I love it. Wonderful team, Louisiana and Andrea. Honorary presence. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. We deeply appreciate your insights.

Krystal Lee  47:33

Yes. Thank you. Thank you Bruce and Ashley!, thank you and thank you to our listeners. Listeners, we would love to hear from you. What promising practices are you using or developing in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts, your stories and leave questions for the team. And don’t forget to subscribe to promising practices for health equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us on this journey where every step we take brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care.

Mandy LeBreche  48:27

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team St. Louis (Cohort 3)

Season 2, Episode 6 | October 23, 2025

• Speakers: Senator Robin Wright Jones, Darrell Hudson, Reggie Tucker-Seeley, Speaker 1, Krystal Lee, Mandy LeBreche, J. Robin Moon

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:20

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I am your host. Crystal Lee, and my co host is J. Robin Moon, associate director of research evaluation and dissemination for IRL. Hey, Robin. As you know, this season of promising practices, we are exploring the experiences, stories and lessons learned from our fellows, our IRL fellows and alumni. And today, we are so pleased to have representatives of cohort seven with us from Team St Louis. Welcome Senator Robin Wright-Jones, Reggie Tucker, Seeley and Daryl Hudson. Welcome. Friends.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  01:10

Thank you so much for having us.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  01:14

Absolutely. Good afternoon.

J. Robin Moon 01:17

We’re so glad to have you with us today. Before we ask you to tell us about yourselves and your work. We invite you to engage with us in one of our signature IRL promising practices, which is to check in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity, and we know that you know this too. So at the end, at the beginning of our meetings, we do a quick check in to help us continuously build connections with you and in our beloved community. So here’s our first check in question today, if you could share one insight with your younger self, what would it be? I have so many I’m gonna start I would, I would tell my younger self to not take myself so seriously. There’s a between. There’s a difference between taking things seriously and taking myself seriously. I think I did most of the latter, and I’m going to toss it to you, Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:31

Okay, I had one, and then I lost it. So let’s see what happens. I would tell myself, Oh, here it is. I would tell myself that there is no need to be so anxious about what’s going to happen in the next moment or the next day or in the future at whatever point, because whoever I need to be to deal with those things will emerge in time to deal with those things. So I would share that with myself in hopes of addressing my anxieties about, you know, the state of the world and and all of that. I will toss it to you, Senator Jones. Senator Wright-Jones.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  03:20

Of course you would! Share with my my younger self was a long time ago. I probably have had several selves since then, but the one thing that I think I would say across time was be comfortable in your skin and what you feel and believe, and be able and comfortable to communicate that. I think that’s very important. It’s good for self development, and I think it’s good for how people read you. You want that to be accurate, and you want to be, you know, comfortable and accurate about what you’re saying about your feelings. Okay, I’ll toss that to Darryl.

Darrell Hudson  04:02

Well, I wish I could just take the ones that Krystal and Robin mentioned. I was thinking about this seriousness comment. So that was definitely true for me. I guess I would, I would say just being more confident in who I am, and as the kids say, “I’m him”. So I wish I could go to my like 18 or 19 or 20 year old self and say, “Look, you’re him”. Don’t Don’t worry about all the things that are ahead, trusting yourself and take advantage of what’s in front of you, but be confident in who you are. I guess Reggie’s next.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  04:46

Yes, I think for me, all of the things that everyone has just said of course, but also, I think “enjoy the now”, one of the things that my that my husband said to me when we first started dating was that I was always waiting for the shoe to drop. And I think I would tell myself if, even if the shoe drops, you’re going to know how to handle it, because you always do. So it would be “enjoy the now”.

Krystal Lee  05:16

Awesome. Thank you all for sharing. How about we jump right in and Robin, please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, and then you can popcorn it to one of your team members, and we’ll go from there.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  05:31

Okay, well, I’m a child of the 60s. First of all, I’m 75 years old, so I’ve seen a lot of things happen in this country and in my life. Thing number one, one of the things as a kid, I’m talking in the 50s, when I was like six, seven years old, I remember clearly, President Eisenhower. I remember the early Democratic and Republican conventions. I was, it was, it was mesmerizing to me. I paid close attention. Of course, we had a little bitty television screen those days. It was a 12 by 12, but I remember looking at and I remember being interested in it even as a kid. Then as I grew up, it’s like I want to help people who didn’t have the privileges. And when I say privileges, my parents. I’m an only child. I had a good life. My mother was a teacher. My father owned his own business. But there were so many of my friends, even at that time, who didn’t have those advantages. And it’s like, how can I help? What can I do to make life better for anybody? And that’s kind of been in my spirit all of my life. So through the 60s, of course, I was out on the street. I had a big afro like Angela Davis, okay, you know, I’ve I’ve been political, and my family and my parents would look at me like, Who is this child?

J. Robin Moon 06:51

You must have worn it so beautifully….

Senator Robin Wright Jones  06:55

right? Okay? And even in college, and even as I got married and had children, I was active with my children’s school, always winding up in leadership somehow or whatever, not looking for it, always wanting to give, not necessarily looking to lead. But I saw that that was there, and I got comfortable with it, you know, being comfortable and being political. Still that remembrance of the political conventions, especially in ‘68 in Chicago with the Dems and Fannie Lou Hamer, said I didn’t come down here basically to waste time. And that’s that’s just intriguing to me. So I involved myself in Jimmy Carter’s campaign for president, for Bill Clinton’s campaign for president. That was very interesting. And then as time went on, I wound up being asked to run for state representative out of Saint Louis, which I did. It was an opportunity, a door that opened, and you get to eight years, basically, which I spent those eight years but then the Senate seat in my district open up, and I ran for that. So with that and all that I did, and all the committees and things that I served on, and especially being in the legislature, I had a lot that I could use in various places. And this opportunity presented itself when Darryl and Bettina Drake at Wash U had it, and Reggie reached out to everybody, and I thought it was a good opportunity to learn and to grow and to share and to make a difference in lives. So health equity, my goodness, is one of many things that need to be leveled out and need to be accessible in a supreme way. It needs to be good quality everything. And if we can work toward that and break these barriers down and get some equality going, I think that’s most important. So I think the work that we’re doing here is, is phenomenal work. Hope I didn’t take too long.

Krystal Lee  09:06

No, you’re fine. Reggie, how about you tell our listeners about yourself?

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  09:11

Sure. So hello, everyone. My name is Reggie Tucker Seeley. I’m the principal and owner of Health Equity Strategies and Solutions, a health equity consulting firm based in Los Angeles, California, that focuses on public health and health care delivery research, also advising and working with health and health care related organizations, departments, committees, coalitions. Focused on developing tools and resources for health and health care leaders, focusing on three specific topics, social determinants of health, defining, measuring and intervening on health disparities and health equity, strategy, development, implementation and evaluation. My path to health equity really started when I served on a commission for health advocacy and equity in the state of Rhode Island. So I was on the faculty at the Harvard School of Public Health and I was asked to teach a course, and I was, you know, scheduled to teach. I wanted to teach a course that a big scholar was already teaching. So I had to think of something else like, you know, I had to develop my own course and and serving on this commission, I realized that, well, first the commission was asked to or legislatively mandated, not asked. We were legislatively mandated to write our state’s health disparities report, and I realized I had no idea how to write a state health disparities report. But then I also thought, well, I trained at the Harvard School of Public Health. I’m having to develop this course if I don’t know how, chances are, our students don’t know how either, and they’re probably going to be asked to do this as they go out into the world, and so I developed a course called Measuring and Reporting Health Disparities. And in that course, I took students through the process of having to write. I wrote a three part case study that took students through the process of having to write a state level health disparities report. And in that experience, I realized that all the things that we talked about in academia, which we’ve been talking about for decades around health equity and health disparities. All of that information has not yet made it to the communities that really need it. And so that really started my journey and trying to figure out, how do we get all of these amazing tools and strategies and resources that are in academia to the communities that really need them? And now I’ll popcorn over to Darryl.

Darrell Hudson  11:26

Sure. Thanks, Reggie. Um, so I think for me, like I’ll start who I am. So I am Professor and Chair of Department of Health Behavior and Health Equity at the University of Michigan School of Public Health, and also a research professor at Washington University in St Louis. Historically, my work has always been around health equity, even if we didn’t use that terminology then. And I will say I started, you know, my kind of origin story. My first classroom was where I grew up in Detroit, and the inequities that you see in a city like that, which has gone through a tremendous amount of renovation and uplift recently, but um historically, has been uniquely impacted by economics and racial racial residential segregation and other social and economic factors. So the things I saw, I couldn’t really articulate it at the time, just felt unjust, and I couldn’t really figure out what was going on. So like in my family and my community, I saw a tremendous amount of what I thought was just untreated mental health. And, you know, for folks who are old enough to remember Frazier, the sitcom. So I went off to college. I thought I was going to be black Frazier, and I’ll return to my community, and I would be a psychiatrist. And, you know, sit in and listen to people’s problems over the radio, back then, but now probably through a podcast. Then I went to, I had a few different pivots early in my career that were pretty impactful, but what I ultimately learned was that it’s really about social determinants of health. Is really what’s these upstream, what we call upstream or structural factors that drive inequities. And no matter what inequity you’re looking at or what outcome you’re looking at, whether it’s chronic disease or violence or you name it, a lot of it is driven by the upstream social determinants of health. And so that’s that’s still where I’m at, is trying to figure out how we can move the needle on those, those broader social terms of health and hopefully strive towards health equity.

Krystal Lee  13:50

Awesome. Thank you all for sharing. Um, our next question, and anybody who feels led to answer can go ahead and do so is, how would you describe your experience with the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program?

Senator Robin Wright Jones  14:07

I’ll start not being a researcher, that is a completely different viewpoint. Okay, mine is the community representative on this particular team. I’ve got deep background in it, obviously. And at present, I’m the ED for prostate cancer advocacy organization for the past 11 years, and I’ve learned a great deal from that alone. I say I know more about prostate cancer than I do about breast cancer. And fortunately, I haven’t had to fight that one, but knowing what I know and being able to share it in a program like this is totally invaluable. I’ve learned the nomenclature, which we’ll talk about later. I’ve learned the parts of research, what it means, where it comes from, where you want to go with it. I’ve been exposed to other people from other parts of the country, all the way across the country, that are obviously working on similar, similar issues of disparities in their community and what things are like there. And it’s just been a growth process for me, being in, you know, I’ve done a lot of things, I’ve taught school, and just many, many things in seven years, several different careers. But this has been an eye opener to look at what the research tower. I like to call it a tower. You’re in your ivory towers, okay, it’s interesting to see what you see from that level, and what you can do at my level, where the rubber meets the road, and what that collaboration can bring, how important that is. And even throughout this, I’ve asked Robin and others at the IRL and UMN as well, is, what are other major corporations like Johnson and Johnson? What are they doing similar to this? To address, you know, to address the issues in our society, which many of them are the reason some of these things are what they are. I’ve looked at “Titans, the rise of Wall Street”. Oh, my God, if you get an opportunity, look at it, it’s eight episodes, it’s all based on reality. It’s all true. But when you look at that, and look at the history, who’s involved, what presidents, names that we know well from Wall Street journeys, and how it is impacting our everyday lives, we may not think it but just the I call it the vagaries of the stock exchange. You know, all of a sudden, boom, something got sold, or something got bought, or it dipped and it rose. There’s reasons for that and and this particular the documentary series will tell you and fill in some gaps about the very things that we’re finding every day. Okay, I’ll throw it to Reggie this time.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  17:05

I really enjoyed my IRL experience. I think just the structure of the program, the time that the program gave us as a team to really, you know, gel together and to learn how to work with each other. We had not worked together before. You know, I was familiar with Darrell’s work, but I had not met Darrell. And I had been introduced to Robin through my role. Prior to starting my consulting company, I had taken a leave of absence from my academic position at the time, which was assistant professor of Gerontology at the Leonard Davis School of Gerontology, to be the first vice president of Health Equity at Zero Prostate Cancer. And so that’s sort of the sort of prostate angle of the of the project. And so I was, I’d been introduced to Robin, I’d read Darrell’s work, but we had never worked together as a team. And so the thing I really appreciated about the IRL program is that the program gave us time to really build our team and to learn how to work with each other, to figure out, to talk about, you know, where our strengths were, and, you know, the specific components of the project that you know were really, you know, sort of well suited for, you know, what the strengths were that we brought to the to the table, and so I feel like we were really able to gel as a team before we had to, you know, sort of start working on the project. And so that was the that was the best part of the my experience of IRL. I would also say, just coming together and meeting the other teams, as Robin mentioned, you know, the other teams are working on, you know, disparities or health equity or related projects focused on addressing structural racism, but they’re likely in different domains. So we’re the only prostate cancer, you know, team and so other projects are working on things like, you know, homelessness or and now I don’t remember the other…

Senator Robin Wright Jones  18:59

Fresh water in Hawaii that’s another one….

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  19:00

Exactly! Fresh water in Hawaii, exactly. Thank you, Robin, yes. And so you know, hearing folks you know, trying to do work in their respective communities, and hearing about the strategies that that they’re using. So the the opportunity to come together as a team, and the time to build our team, but also the opportunity to come together as a larger cohort and to hear about all of the things that that other teams are working on as well. And now I’ll popcorn it over to Darryl.

Darrell Hudson  19:29

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Reggie, so I’ll cosign everything you said in terms of, like, the advantages, the runway, to create a team where you hadn’t worked together before. I think the opportunity to expand our networks and get to know people in other spaces, so you get to learn the content and substantive areas they’re working on, whether it’s environmental justice or housing or whatever the case may be. But I think especially right now, it’s really important to be able to touch base with people and just get a shot at. Arm shot in the arm. Get some energy. Get some inspiration, being able to learn what people are doing and see that folks are making progress. So sometimes, especially when you’re you know, sometimes academia, at least in my neck of the woods, a lot of times, can feel isolating. So being able to connect with folks who are doing really outstanding work. And learning about what they’re doing, the impact they’re making in their communities, is really important. And I think the other thing that is…  I’m really greatly appreciative of is the opportunity to get connected with so many different resources. So we got a chance to meet with folks from Academy Health, for example, so thinking about developing communication plans and how to communicate with different audiences, meetings that have outstanding panelists of people who write for different newspapers, like the Washington Post, or thinking about folks who are thinking about framing. So Reggie probably talk about the impact of the Frameworks Institute, the thinking that we’ve had more recently, and finding some of the work that we’ve some of the results that we’ve had and some of the data we’ve collected so far. So those are resources that are really hard to quantify. So we’re really grateful for the opportunity.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  21:21

I also think the team building side of it is great, because we’re all in three different parts of the country, so we physically only met, mainly when we were coming to an IRL session. And we’ve a couple of times, you know, Reggie’s come in, and now that Darryl is up north, basically they’d have to come in for us to do a face to face, we get a lot done, but generally Friday at noon is our time to meet. And you know, we’ve done well, considering we’ve got 1000s of miles between us. You know…

J. Robin Moon 21:51

Yeah, your cohort is also lucky to be past the pandemic that we were actually able to do that. Your team has already started talking about your IRL project. So the question now is specifically about your project. The title of your project is “Prostate Cancer Patient Healthcare, Provider and Healthcare System Perspectives and Equity in the Cancer Care Delivery System in St Louis”. So tell us about your project from where you are. So like Robin, by the way, you are the Robin from the 60s. So you are the Robin and I’m the second Robin. Tell us about the community where your research is based, and maybe Reggie and Daryl share with us, from your specific role as one of the two research partners, what the project meant to you. Would you start with maybe Robin.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  22:49

Okay, I do say I’m the oldest Robin. I mean, you know any other Robins anywhere near me? Maybe at 40 something, but in the

J. Robin Moon 22:58

In the most complimentary way…

Senator Robin Wright Jones  22:59

okay, alright, absolutely okay. Saint Louis, Missouri. Oh, my God, I have to admit, I call it Saint Louis misery, because Missouri… At one time, we were a bellwether state. They could come to us to we could determine who’s going to be the next president. We were a very democratic state, but gays, guns and abortion killed that, and we are now deeply, deeply Republican conservative, MAGA deeply. And it’s showing in everything, absolutely everything – health equity, Of course. Our population in 1950 was 800,000 we are now down to about 250,000 so we are not a large city anymore, and which affects the CDBG money that we get from the federal government. If you get any money…

J. Robin Moon 23:53

CDBG is a block grant…?

Senator Robin Wright Jones  23:57

Community Development Block Grant, and it’s broken down by the size of your community, large cities and medium cities and so forth. So that money has, you know, dwindled across time, well, especially over the past 10 years, for sure. We have the another thing about Missouri is that the majority of the population only has a high school education, which means most of the people in the state haven’t been anywhere. Even when I first ran for office, and our class at that time in 2000 we did a tour of the state to look at the facilities and talk to different people. When we got down into the lower part of the state, in the middle is considered a wilderness, because there are less than 15 people per square mile, okay, and it was such a dramatic difference from urban, even to suburban and even to rural, but to the wilderness area, what the needs were, who we were talking to and about what. Even how we were served. It’s was so interesting. We’ve gotten steak and potato and lobster in one area. We actually got bologna and cheese sandwiches in the wilderness area. Okay, it was interesting. That’s all they had. They thought that’s, you know, all we needed. But here in the city, our population is predominantly black. We’re having a lot of issues with our education system. When the tornado came in, it tore up 15 schools, the majority of them on the north side of city, which is the African American side, and they have since closed those schools, moved those teachers and those students to other schools in the city, while they, quote, unquote, “repair”. And the damage wasn’t that bad. It was roof and windows. It could have been done. One of our major high schools, historical high schools, schools, Sumner High School, first African American High School on the west side of the Mississippi only had roof damage, and it’s like and it was slated to be done anyway, but they shut that down too. So that has created a groundswell. There’s consistently a groundswell of inequity across the board in the city of Saint Louis. So, you know, because of social determinants of health, we obviously black men have a higher rate of incidence and death. And what we’re doing is very helpful. What Wash U does is very helpful. They have a van now dedicated to prostate cancer testing that they use in their region, which is St Louis and as well as in the Illinois area. So that those are the factors that we’re working against. And we’re talking to the doctors, the patients, the providers, the administrators, what is, what do you think and what can we do to change it? You know? What? What do you think we can do to change it so that that’s kind of what we’re working in, that’s what we’re working against. Okay, okay, I’m gonna throw it to Reggie.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  27:11

Okay. And so we are so excited about this project, the opportunity to talk to not only prostate cancer patients, but also healthcare providers and healthcare system administrators to address the barriers that black men face as they navigate the prostate cancer care delivery system in St Louis. And the idea for this project really came from a project that I worked on a few years ago when I was at USC, and I was working with, I was on this social determinants of health task force for LA County, and in that task force, we were charged with understanding how the health care delivery system, specifically the public health care delivery system in Los Angeles, was screening for social determinants, and we were about to roll out universal screening, but we realized we had no idea what was happening at the time. And so the the lead for this project was an emergency room physician, Dr Brina Tara, and she and I developed a project where we not only talk to patients about screening for social needs, but we also talked to providers and healthcare system administrators. And it was that sort of multi-level project which really started me thinking about the importance of not only addressing sort of what people are experiencing as they’re navigating the system, but also talking to the people who can make some changes when you encounter the barriers. Because I have a background in accounting, and it wasn’t until we talked to the Chief Financial Officer of the of the system that we understood why social determinants of health related pilot projects were not moving forward, and it was primarily because the the folks in the finance office were not part of the conversations around the implementation of those of those projects, those pilot projects. And so I’ll, I’ll share the paper that that we wrote from from that project, because it might be be helpful to your to your listeners, but, but that that idea of sort of talking to patients, providers and healthcare system administrators, really motivated me to think about for all of my future projects, that it is important to sort of include those multiple levels. I feel like we in public health often talk about multi level frameworks and multi level, you know, conceptual models, but when we get to the place of actually doing the research and developing interventions, that can be a bit more challenging. And so we are so excited that we’ve had the opportunity to talk to patients. We’ve had a couple of we’ve had several interviews with providers and several interviews with healthcare system administrators in St Louis. I’m just looking forward to the findings that we uncover to hopefully address some of the barriers that black men are facing as they’re navigating their prostate cancer journey.

J. Robin Moon 29:46

The true systems level change.

Krystal Lee  29:50

Yeah. Darryl, how about you start telling us about the promising practices or practice that has emerged from your IRL project?

Darrell Hudson  30:04

Well, there’s a few different things. I think one of the biggest things that we’ve learned is that there is a promising practice that Robin heads, which is the Empowerment Network in St Louis. And so the work that’s occurring there, providing support for men who have cancer, prostate cancer, specifically, there’s tremendous resources and care towards those men, so that’s something to build on. And then talking to people who have participated in those groups, they talk about how meaningful that practice has been, both from, again, different levels of support. So social support, navigation, knowledge, clarity about what’s happening, something that is really scary and life altering, and so being able to demystify what’s happening in care. And that’s kind of at the crux of what we’re trying to do in the project, is to try to figure out what are some of the elements of equitable care delivery for black men who have prostate cancer. And that’s what we’ve kind of mainly focused on or been able to uncover, is the effectiveness of having a group like the Empowerment Network. I think the other stuff that we’ve been able to figure out, and this is these are things that you know, are not unique to St Louis or to this project, but it’s difficult to catch people who are outside of those networks. So whenever you’re trying to get folks who are, you know, underserved, whatever word you want to put in there, underserved, not connected, that’s still a challenge. So finding people who are outside that network, as effective as it is, that’s always a challenge. To get people engaged from a preventive standpoint or from a treatment standpoint. So I think that’s another thing that we have to I don’t think that’s a promising practice, per se, but just thinking about ways that we can engage different groups of people, I think the other thing that’s related to prostate cancer is it’s a little bit more tricky to screen for and how follow up compared to, say, breast cancer. And so some of the things that we have to think about with our you know, our respondents that we talked to, including our providers and our administrators, sharing this out to others, is thinking about, how do we figure out how to get men connected to primary care? Because if you don’t have a primary care physician, then it’s very difficult to just, you know, find someone, to find a way to navigate really complicated settings. So those are some of the key takeaways that you know that, at least in my estimation, to pull down and think about in development of practices that can be disseminated more widely.

J. Robin Moon 33:13

Well, speaking of your dissemination, next month, we will have our annual, final Annual Meeting conference in Minneapolis, and you will be graduating. So the program will end looking towards the future. What do you think, maybe one of you can answer this question. What do you think are your next steps? Have you started talking about working together again, or, if not, what’s next? How do you see the lessons you’ve learned from IRL being applied to the work towards health equity for the population you work for and for all?

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  33:54

I think our the structure of our project, that is that where we’re talking to prostate cancer patients, we’re talking to healthcare providers and we’re talking to healthcare system administrators. Hopefully we can set up, or we can, you know, put out there a model for doing this kind of research. And for me doing this kind of work going forward, that is the model that I want to continuously use. That is not just talking to patients, or not just talking to people, you know, running a healthcare delivery system, but talking to all three to get a sense of, you know, how do we address the barriers that black men are facing? And as I’m aging myself and I’m having to navigate the healthcare delivery system, and I often say, if I’m struggling with navigating the system, and I study it like I can’t imagine what the folks who aren’t so steeped in the processes are managing. And so what I’m going to take with me and my future projects is a desire to ensure that we consistently have conversations with all of those levels, if we are indeed to create health equity for for black men specifically, but just everyone in general, in terms. Of their ability to successfully navigate the healthcare delivery system in this country.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  35:07

I’ll go next. Uh, for First of all, I am I have resigned from the Empowerment Network effective October 31. I’ve been there for 11 years. This will be my third retirement, our fourth retirement in life. Okay, so it’s time. It’s just time. Nothing’s wrong. It’s a great organization. We’re doing great things, but it’s just time for me. I just want to pursue me and pursue I am a real estate broker. I want to delve back into real estate. Delve back into politics. My chief of staff and my campaign manager is running for a Senate seat. I need to be involved in that campaign, and I can’t do it from a nonprofit. So that’s another reason. That’s not the reason, but that’s another reason why. And I also have been asked by several smaller organizations, if I would write them some grants. So do it all day long. Okay, pretty successful at it. So it’s like, okay, I can do that. So, but I’m open to if Reggie or Darryl should call me and say, Can you would you? Could you? Absolutely! If they needed to anything, you’re so welcome. I have great contacts. I mean, you know, I know everybody in the city. I know the governor. We all serve to the governor, Josh Holly, Eric Smith and I. We all serve together in the House and the Senate. So I know them by first name, okay? And we even when I would go to zeros legislative weekend in Washington. I’d go see em, you know, and they are open to prostate cancer issues, because they all have it in their family somewhere, Father, uncle, brother. So, you know, I again what I can do to help, I’ll be more than happy to do so, but let me I’ll say this about what is going on with 10 just so. And I guess I could put it in the notes too. Two things. Mel V, our founder, did a podcast for Siteman. Very interesting podcast from his perspective. He’s a, well, 18 year survivor, but he had a recurrence this spring, and he went through chemo, and he’s got taken meds, and he’s doing well, uh, his numbers are back down, but his perspective, and he’s been writing basically since he was diagnosed 18 years ago, and this was kind of his way of healing and walking the journey. He did a book, little book about his writings. We just compiled it during the pandemic, since we were working from home, but that podcast had 47,000 views within a matter of days. He just came up about a week and a half ago. So that’s something to look at when you listening, Wanting to hear from a survivor, an African American man with Mel will be 72 so, you know, he was in his late 60s. Math wasn’t my strongest subject. But anyway, he, you know, he’s got good, good insight. And also, we were reached by survivor net. I don’t know if you’re familiar with survivornet.com they are a platform, streaming platform that focuses on all cancers, and they come around the country to talk to cancer survivors, and Seidman put them in touch with Mel V and they are coming the first weekend of September to spend the weekend with the walk. We’re going to start with the zero walk. We’re going to come to the office and just a whole three days worth of videoing of him, his wife, myself, the support our our members, and it will run on their survivor NET platform. It’ll be like a 10 minute documentary about what we do, what melvie does, and deep dive film are the producers, but they do all kinds of things. There’s one now that’s streaming called Fire boys, which I’ve seen, which is about the firemen who fought the fires in California. So this is the kind of thing they do. And if they send us something, I’m sure when it’s done, I will certainly share it with everybody, but those are the kinds of things that we look at to get the word out. You know, we do billboards. This one this year, is a wonderful billboard that says this is what beating prostate cancer looks like. And it’s two of our four of our members, Mel V being one men who have survived for many years, decades. And we’re thinking about branding that actually, that I use that slogan, this is what democracy looks like when I was running for Senate. So I think this is what beating prostate cancer looks like. You got four African American men healthy, looking well on a billboard that says a lot, that says an awful lot, so that that’s what I’ll be doing starting November 1.

J. Robin Moon 40:09

just a couple of things.

Krystal Lee  40:13

Not that much! You’ll be alright. So one of our, one of the things that we like to have folks talk about is, you know, the impact of the work that we are doing, and not just on our communities, but also on ourselves. So one of our core beliefs as this podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler, when she says, “All that you touch, you change, and all that you change changes you”. So will you please tell us how the IRL program, our beloved community, has changed you, and how do you think you have changed the program or your communities?

Darrell Hudson  40:56

That’s a really good question. It’s hard to be in the lightning round with something like that. But I think that the the biggest you know impact as I [inaudible] like the Octavia Butler quote, is again being in community with others, whether they’re scholars or community members leaders, who are working shoulder to shoulder. And I think that’s to me, if I had think about the broader across seven cohorts and all these different teams across the country, I think that’s truly the biggest takeaway, I would say, for the IR program in general, is having a cadre of folks who are trained to think about these issues, who’ve developed a suite of skills and connections so that we can call upon each other. And we know that projects end. We know that funding goes away. Priorities change, but the relationships are sustainable, I think the, again, the capacity that’s been built by IRL and community connections are phenomenal, lots of different people at different institutions around the country. So I think, to me, that’s the biggest thing, and just being able to pour into that community and also to get again, take away from it as well. So to me, that’s the biggest impact I could say that I’ve experienced with IRL

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  42:27

I think for me, two things that I’ve learned or that have impacted me, is the idea that language matters and stories matter. I think the storytelling workshops that you guys prepared for us from Storytellers for Change, uh, Luis Ortega, that was one of the most sort of, you know, life changing experiences for me in terms of, you know, learning how to tell better stories and the importance of stories. I feel like, you know, as an as a former academic, I think I’ll always have a foot sort of in that, in that space. But what IRL has helped me do, and what Robin has helped me do in particular, is to be very cognizant of when I am sort of, you know, going into academic speak, because she will quickly bring us back down to making sure that we are describing things in the way that a community member will understand and so. So for me, that has been the biggest learning is, you know, sort of language matters, making sure everyone understands what you’re saying, and then the importance of stories in the places where we’re working,

J. Robin Moon 43:31

Lest, the audience gets confused with which Robin. Anytime the credit is attributed, we’re talking about Senator Robin Wright-Jones, not me.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  43:42

Um, the whole process. Well, first, I learned a lot about research. I enjoyed that from the two of them. I enjoyed the fact that Robert Wood Johnson Foundation has the heart, enough to go out into the country and find out about these disparities for seven different cohorts. That is quite an investment of time and treasure and talent, and I respect it, and it’s wonderful. How, how did it impact me? Well again, to know that there is such a thing that’s happening, and I hope that, you know, Robert Wood Johnson can encourage other foundations to do similarly. We need this type of look at our communities, all of our communities, the disabled community, the indigenous community, the the gay lesbian community, anybody that’s under siege, which almost is everybody these days. There needs to be an influx of dollars and resources to start a conversation and make a change and make a difference. That that’s what I you know. In the end, I hope I left that. You know, go check with others, big corporations. When you look at Titans: The the rise of Wall Street, there’s plenty of them to go to and who can make a difference. And for me, it’s, it’s just been an eye opening experience. Like I said, I’m Saint Louis, Missouri, Misery. You know the, to have a conversation up and above our issues here, from other places and again, exposed to others who’ve done other things is really been good. I have enjoyed it. I enjoyed the sessions. Every time we went. It was great, great locations and great food, always, always great food and great sessions. All of the sessions were always good.

J. Robin Moon 45:47

Thank you. Speaking of great food, final question, back to one of our promising practices. We’re going to ask you to talk about, we’re going to check out now.  Working towards equity, and again, systems of oppression, it takes a big toll. Can you share with our listeners how you engage in self care as you do this difficult work? Feeding yourselves with good food is one…

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  46:19

I’m happy to jump in. As I mentioned, I live in Los Angeles, which is the place of almost eternal sunshine. And so one of the things that I try to do is at lunchtime, and I work 100% at home. So one of the things I try to do every day, or at least four times a week, is to go on a walk in my neighborhood during lunch. And I call that my sun therapy. And I take about a 30 to 45 minute walk in my neighborhood, and I try to get sun therapy as often as I can. And then on the weekends, we live close to a couple of hiking trails, and so I also try to get out on the weekends as well. So taking full advantage of living in the Sunshine State and living in Los Angeles, geting my sun therapy is my form of self care.

J. Robin Moon 47:03

It’s lovely. Reggie.

Darrell Hudson  47:08

Yeah, I’ll chime in. So another shout out to IRL, which was the book club that we had the Four Pivots actually assigned that to all of our incoming mph students in my department. Oh, really. So we just debriefed about it yesterday during orientation. So definitely, for for listeners, I would say that’s a, no pun intended, a pivotal book to take a look at the four pivots and so self care and rest and being  restored, healing, all those things are at the crux of the Four Pivots, and I’ve been thinking about that a lot over the you know, I guess it’s been about a year and a half since we were first exposed to that text and again, sharing it with students, and they’re wrestling with these questions like rest, how do we carve out time for rest? And how do we make sure that we’re doing our internal work so that mirror versus analysis pivot, for example. So those are all things that I’ve been trying to take in. So I would just cite that book and all the things that are in it are ways that I’m trying to work on, on self care.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  48:25

Oh, he mentioned the book. I’m a reader. I can sit down with a book and a cup of tea in a comfortable chair and read three or four books at a time. It just takes my mind away from, you know, the daily and I don’t read romance. I mean, I read real stuff. Okay, I’m not doing Romance.

Senator Robin Wright Jones  48:53

So reading it and I used to bike. Well, I’ve got five grandchildren, so back in the day, when they were younger, we go to the park and bike around the park, which I do like that, but I do more walking now, just for age purposes. You know, I don’t want to fall out anywhere, and nobody knows. I’m not wearing one of those things yet. I don’t want to wear one of those where I had to punch the button and try not to do that. But I have a park nearby that I can walk around and, you know, it’s, it’s, and, like you say, get your sun and fresh air. Drink good water. I like to cook. So I don’t do the fried foods so much like I used to, just more, you know, stir fry type things. So any outdoors, reading and a good meal, good healthy meal, I think that that’s, that’s the best thing I know. Yeah, walking and eating walking, eating and reading and what can I say?

J. Robin Moon 49:46

Sounds like all the right thing to do. Team, Saint Louis, Robin, Reggie and Darrel. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. We deeply appreciate your insights.

Reggie Tucker-Seeley  49:59

Thanks so much for having us.

Krystal Lee  50:01

Thank you all for being with us. Thank you. Thank you, and also thank you to our listeners. Listeners, we would love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts, ideas, promising practices, or leave questions for the team. And don’t forget to subscribe to promising practices for health equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again for joining us on this journey where every step we take brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time….

Mandy LeBreche  50:48

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team Hawai’i (Waimānalo) (Cohort 2)

Season 2, Episode 5 | October 9, 2025

• Speakers: Ted Radovich, Krystal Lee, Ilima Ho-Lastimosa, Mandy LeBreche, Cody Cotton, and Jane Chung

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:21

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host, Krystal Lee and my co-host today is the illustrious Cody Cotton Co-Director of IRL. Hey, Cody.

This season of promising practices, we are exploring the experiences, stories and lessons learned by our IRL fellows and alumni. And today, we are so pleased to have alumni from cohort three with us. Fellows from Team Waimanalo, Hawaii, I would love to for you to help me, Cody, welcome Ilima Ho-Lastimosa, Jane Chung-Do and Ted Radovich. hey guys. Hey friends.

Ted Radovich  01:12

Aloha, awesome.

Cody Cotton  01:15

So, as Krystal just mentioned, we’re glad to have you with us today, before we ask to tell us anything about yourself or your work, we want to invite you all to engage in one of our signature IRL promising practices. So checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities, and more than anything, towards health equity. So at the beginning of our meetings, we do a quick check in. Sometimes, it’s quick, sometimes it takes a little bit of time, but we’re going to make sure this is quick, and then it focuses on building connections in our beloved community. So here’s the check in for today. What is one thing that is quietly or loudly bringing you joy today?

Krystal Lee  01:58

So one of the things that I have been doing this year is thinking differently about my garden. I used to grow, you know, plants and vegetables from my home country, from Jamaica, and this year, the garden is not doing very well, but I had a kind of shift in the way I’ve been thinking about it. And, you know, the garden is doing what it can do, and I just like I am doing the best that I can do, and I have decided to approach it with an attitude of gratitude for whatever it is able to do for me this year, and this year, we’ve been focusing on flowers more so than the actual edible edible plants. So I am in the process of setting up a pollinator garden in my backyard. One of my neighbors mentioned that when he was growing up, there used to be monarch butterflies everywhere in this neighborhood. He’s lived here his entire life, and he has watched the monarch butterfly population decrease all these years. And I’m sure I’m doing my part to try to get the pollinators back, and so I’m approaching my garden a little bit differently, and it is really bringing me joy to see bumblebees coming around and interacting with my flowers and plants, and that’s what’s quietly bringing me joy. Cody, how about you?

Cody Cotton  03:15

Love that love that usually I would say my baby girl, she turned six months in two days. Um, however, was taking it by storm right now. Is my two little dudes getting ready to go off to school next week. Mini vacations. Here we come every single day. So I love having everyone here for the summer, but I am also looking forward to having the house be a little bit more quieter. So that’s what’s bringing me joy right now. Loudly, bringing me joy right now. Alright, Ilima, I am throwing it towards you.

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  03:48

Aloha. Nui kako today, looking out the window and seeing some gray skies, but also knowing that the sun is going to rise. And I’m looking at Mount Olomana, which I was born and raised around and got to hike from a very young age. It’s bringing me joy today, because I’m at home in my house. I just returned from a trip a couple days ago, and so I’m happy to be home in the kingdom of Hawaii. Mahalo. I’ll throw it to Jane.

Jane Chung  04:15

Aloha, everybody. So great question, Mimi, thanks Krystal for going first so we could think about it. But both my kids started school pretty recently, and I now have a fifth grader and an eighth grader, so they’re both in that transition year where they’re getting ready for middle school and high school, so this year, I think is going to be a very pivotal year for them. And, yeah, it’s it’s a joy, but it’s also kind of heartbreaking to watch your kids grow up so quickly, so just kind of grappling with that as a parent, Okay.

Ted Radovich  04:50

hello again. Well, I guess I’m fortunate that there’s a number of things that I could pick. I’ll keep with the family theme. My son has decided… He’s 22 and recently, he’s decided that he wants to study agriculture here at the university. And so he’s, yeah, so he’s he’s on board. He’s working at the research station where we do a lot of our work now, and has really seems to be coming into his own. And we have four kids, and he’s the oldest. And so it gives me hope that the pipeline is moving. And while I agree with Jane about, you know, it’s a little bit sad that the kids are growing up, I’m also anticipating things getting quieter as, again, everybody moves through the pipeline and and we have less people in the house. And my daughter, one of my daughters, this morning, I was not handling any situation very gracefully, and she helped remind me we know that it’s important to both model good behavior and also that we can learn from our kids, sometimes patience and calm. She’s often the more mature of the two of us. So I was grateful for her, her lesson this morning. So So I also have some quiet joy for my family this morning.

Krystal Lee  06:07

Awesome. Thank you all for sharing. Thank you. So how about we jump right in and ask you each to tell us a little about yourselves. You can introduce yourselves, and then you can popcorn it to other members of your team to quickly tell us who you are and how you approach this work. Let’s start with Jane.

Jane Chung  06:26

Alright, so my name is Jane Chung-Do. I am a professor and the Associate Chair of the Department of Public Health Sciences at University of Hawaii at Manoa. I am a 1.5 Korean American immigrant moved I was born in Seoul, Korea, and moved over to Hawaii when I was six years old with my family. So I’m a settler here. I am in public health. Got my Masters and Doctorate in Public Health at University of Hawaii, and have been working in Waimanalo with Waimanalo since 2006 I think, and, yeah, the work has been just very meaningful, meaningful for me and transformative for me and my family and the work I do and how I see public health and what else. I’m also a mother. I’m an ocean lover. I love the ocean, I think that’s also been very pivotal in shaping who I am and how I work with communities, and the lessons I learned from the ocean are very similar to the lessons I learned in community. So yeah, happy to be here. I’m very proud to be a part of this team. I’ll popcorn over to Ilima

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  07:40

Aloha. I’m Ilima Ho-Lastimosa from Waimanalo, Hawaii. I’m a mom, I’m a widow. I’m also a grandma. I’m a sister, auntie, cousin, and I have lots and lots of ohana. Come from a very big line of Kanaka, Hawaii. My family actually is traced back to 400 BC in China as well. I’m a scholar today. I guess I really am a island person, but I’m a student. I’m a PhD student in Social Welfare at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, and I’m also, because of the two of my teammates, an assistant faculty member at UH Manoa. Now, so very privileged to be in this realm, in this world view, I guess you could say, because it was never a part of my journey growing up, or even thinking that I could go to college. And today, I guess I’m a lifelong learner now, and I look forward to my grandbaby coming at the end of the year. Mahalo, Ted, your turn.

Ted Radovich  08:44

All right, let me see. Okay, my mics off. Oh, well, again. Ted Radovich, born and raised in Waimanalo, Hawaii, I mentioned that I’m a husband and a father, a professor here at U H. I’m chair of our department Tropical Plant and Soil Sciences. That’s an honor that I’ve recently received. I am a food producer. That’s I think that food and being able to produce my own food is something that really was a really motivated me in my career choices moving forward and focusing on really developing my own skill set so that I can contribute in whatever way I can to making our home here in Hawaii more food secure, self sufficient. We used to be a long time ago, and now we’re we’re pretty far away from that, and so feeding our community together is really what what drives me and really has been the focus of my since high school, is FFA all the way through college and I went, I left Hawaii a couple of times just long enough to, you know, try to learn how to serve my home better. So I did serve in Peace Corps a couple of years in West Africa as an agroforestry volunteer. And I did four years in Ohio for my PhD, but all of that was to come home and see see what I could do. And I’ve been blessed to have a lot of able to work with a lot of folks, especially these two here, to really push forward some of the things that we want to do with regard to food sovereignty, food security and just building our community.

Cody Cotton  10:24

Love that, love that. And Ted, actually, since you just went I’m actually going to start with you, so I’m giving you some time to think about it. But what, what made you all get off into this work of health equity? And then also, what does health equity look like to you?

Ted Radovich  10:40

That’s a good question. And actually, that’s one of the things that, really, I personally have, you know, it’s been an opportunity for me to grow because I come from agriculture. And while, I guess, intuitively knew the link between food, good food, and health, really, my focus has always been food production and how to do that in a way that minimizes negative impacts, maximizes regenerative activities and things. So health equity is not something I thought much until I really became involved with Robert Wood Johnson and IRL and I think we’ve come together. Because if you think about a food equity is, or, excuse me, health equity is very much a transdisciplinary thing, and so, you know, as somebody focused on food production, I have learned quite a bit about number one, how that is important and integral and contributes to health equity, but also how, how much more is out there that I need to learn and participation in the fellowship has, I still got a long way to go, but certainly has helped me move forward quite a bit and again, as well as my partnership with public health and my colleagues who are involved with the broader issues of health equity.

Cody Cotton  12:00

Thank you Ted. Appreciate that. Alright, I’m looking at you, Jane.

Jane Chung  12:05

Thanks for giving me time to think about this. So I would say I’ve always been interested in health, and for a while I thought, you know, the only careers I knew of were clinical, right? Being a doctor, being a nurse, being a pharmacist, and I knew that wasn’t right for me. So it took me a while to find public health. And so when I was looking for a graduate program, and I knew I wanted to be home, and when I returned to Hawaii and found public health, I was like, This is it! This is I want to do community work. I really felt in my heart from being able to travel and live in different parts of the world. I also realized through that that culture is such a big part of who we are and how we also stay healthy. And so it wasn’t really though, until I met folks in Waimanalo in 2006 I started my masters in 2006 and I’ve had a graduate research assistantship, and that was with the API center that was funded by CDC. I was really fortunate to get that GAship, still not really understanding what health equity could look like in Hawaii, and that’s actually when I met Ilima and a lot of other folks too in the community were just doing these, like amazing grassroots initiatives that were just so organic and so rooted. And that was really when I thought, this is public health, this is health equity, right, involving the community being grounded in community, and I just kind of fell in love, and I’ve been tagging along with these folks for since then, you know, and seeing each other go through a lot of life milestones and grief and joys, and, yeah, the community continues to amaze me, and I feel like a lot of people are doing health equity work without calling it health equity, right? Like these terms, it’s just life, it’s just what you do. It’s what’s pono, it’s that’s uplifting the lahui, which is, you know, the Hawaiian community. And so, yeah, I think it’s interesting, because I’m here, I’m learning these academic terms right in academia through grad school, and you know the things that we do in the ivory tower. But I see the community just doing it, right. They’re just doing it without getting, overthinking it. They just know, because they know the community. So that’s where I see the health equity work being done, and that’s where I learned what health equity is. But I also have seen health equity like put into action, because sometimes we talk about it too much without doing the action, and that’s one of the lessons I’ve learned. Like you just do it. That’s what the community wants. You do it, figure it out. And I’m an overthinker. And so I like to plan. I like to over plan. And so it’s really taught me to just go with the waves, go with the flow, and take the follow the community. The community got it and they have they should take the lead and where to follow and to support.

Cody Cotton  15:20

I love that I took that as a way of being. I love that. I love that. Ilima, throwing it your way.

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  15:29

Okay. I love that Jane mentions about the ocean and going with the flow. And in Hawaii, that is to Nalu, which is to surf, and which is to adjust. And so I’ve had to adjust a lot because I’m really not an academic. I’m a community person that was told by academia that I wasn’t good enough when I didn’t have a college degree, and I didn’t know any of the terms. I don’t know what is health equity, I didn’t know what is agriculture or public health or social work. That’s not my terms. Life is my term, that the the learning is in the doing and the living, and that was where I came from, and that is what I bring to the table. I don’t really have a plan. I have a direction and I have a end goal. But, you know, really just doing all of the steps to get there is, is really the equity that that I look for in life and in my journey and as a community person from my community of Waimanalo, and especially within the Hawaiian community, because a lot of the things that we initiated in my community of Waimanalo, which is a very predominantly Hawaiian community, and able to bring it to other Hawaiian communities, is the equity is. But it was always the plan. It was always my plan was to go into Hawaiian communities and bring goodness and aloha back, because a lot of it is lost, and we have a lot of turmoil within our own communities, especially in Hawaii now, a lot of violence and so relearning, revisiting, reimagining what health is, has been really easy. And the action was a little bit hard in the beginning, maybe almost 20 Well, 20 years ago for me, for sure. But you know, things that we want to implement now, because it’s been such a two decades of doing this action and this work, I think is happening, and I really appreciate IRL giving us the opportunity to be present at the table, to learn about health equity and really implement a lot of the things. And I think COVID was one of the best things that happened to our community, because we got to re-implement the things that we already know, know in our DNA, to just happen, you know, and and it’s lived, and it’s persisted, and it’s consistent and it’s living, and it’s bringing the equity back to our community. So Mahalo.

Krystal Lee  17:54

Awesome. Thank you all for sharing your journeys into into health equity work and your perceptions of what healthy, health equity can look like, Ilima, I’m going to ask you to tell us, you know, because I’ve heard, I heard a couple things that you all said which stood out to me. One was Jane said that culture is part of how we stay healthy, which I think is a really powerful statement. And then Ilima talked about how health equity has to be grounded in community, and that health equity is really uplifting the community and learning from the community and following the community’s lead, and that’s something that we’ve heard from other other teams that we’ve interviewed so far. So Ilima, I wonder if you can tell us about your project and about the community where your research is based. I know your project is called “Rebuilding Indigenous Food Systems in Rural Native Hawaii”. Tell us about the project and about the community where your research is based.

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  18:53

You know, I really would like to start with something else. I just watched. I don’t know if you guys saw chief of war yet, but it’s talking about the history of Hawaii and how a Kamehameha brought the the kingdom together. And I think that’s health equity and Kaina Makua. I just watched a little snippet that he he played Kamehameha. He’s a great friend, and he’s a I know warrior for sure, but he talked about how he never was a fan of Kamehameha, and he didn’t like his ways, but when he became played the role of Kamehameha, he got to understand how Kamehameha thought was as to bringing everybody together, to live in the same way, and to really persist as Kanaka, as Hawaiians. And so I think that’s really what the goal was for Kanaka like me to do, was to bring everybody together, learn us together, and the community leading, and I represent the community, and I listen to the community, and we all kind of have the same ideas, and just putting it into practice, was a difficult part before, but I think with the leverage of all of the things that we learned since we started, really makes a difference in the equity is because people now they listen. Because before we had no platform, no friends, no fans, no input, right? And today, it’s a different story. And so we just gotta lead from that space into the bigger arena of health equity. And I don’t know if I answered your question, but that’s my answer. Mahalo,

Krystal Lee  20:31

Thanks Ilima. Ted, you want to tell us a little bit about the project and the community where it’s based?

Ted Radovich  20:38

Yeah, so the project is centered around aquaponics to bring community together. And aquaponics, for those who don’t know, is kind of the combination aquaculture and hydroponics, and then using the fish water as the nutrient source for the plants. So you end up dramatically saving on water the way it’s set up, and you save considerably on fertilizer and other inputs. I think there, there was an effort to really bring this to the commercial agricultural industry, and Ilima was engaged with that process and saw the the huge potential, potential for community development with this, with this tool, for multiple reasons. A large part is the connection between water and fish and land plants. And we have a traditional natural resource management unit. It’s called ahupua mountain to the to the ocean. And it just it resonated dramatically with our community. And Ilima just built that up with, you know, very little support, initially, and was able to find that to push it forward. It paralleled, but outgrew the actual efforts. Really the value of aquaponics, I think, to our communities, it goes far beyond the commercial income generation, and really builds on all kinds of things. And then the partnership with Jane brought in the public health, health metrics, measures. Malama was born, and that’s the project. And again, with regard to community, what I noticed years ago was that there were a lot of home garden activities that that would pop up and these garden they’re usually garden beds, or, you know, things like that that would be installed in people’s yards, and they would be, you know, defunct within a year, probably. But as we were watching Ilima’s program and installation of aquaponic units in folks yards, we saw that that, you know, they were more likely to persist for a number of reasons. The resonance with the Aqua concept is certainly one of them. But also, there’s just enough. There’s just enough engineering kind of, you know, just enough to engage folks who are interested in that you have the fish and kids, especially, but everybody kind of is fond of the fish, and so there’s something for everybody, and it’s simple enough to deal with issues as they as they arise, especially if the community supports each other. So yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of reasons why aquaponics, and aquaponics, in the way that Ilima developed the program, resonates very strongly with our community. And you know, in addition to community building, there’s real, tangible benefits that Jane can tell you about with regard to health and health metrics, etc. So…

Cody Cotton  23:27

Thank you for sharing, actually, speaking of that, and I’ve heard the dimension of community. I heard the mention of different things, and I want to take a small pivot. Can you tell us a promising practice or practices that has emerged from the IRL project?

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  23:46

Okay, I’m gonna answer. And you know, our aquaponics project was just aquaponics, and I think the clinical side emerged just before we became IRL. And I’m not used to clinicals and but I have to say that people that were in aquaponics prior to this and learned about the clinicals after are very interested in in the clinical side, which is amazing to me as a Hawaiian woman, because I really don’t go to the doctor. I had to go to the doctor, yesterday. I went to the doctor twice in 10 years. And yet the kupuna are always asking, can I participate? And I said no, because you already did your aquaponics project prior to the clinicals, but they but they want it for their community. So I find that very interesting, that they want the clinical data within families and communities.

Krystal Lee  24:38

Jane, can you tell us more about that clinical side that Ilima was referencing and the connection to the promising practice.

Jane Chung  24:47

Yeah. So in 2018 we we began MALAMA. And MALAMA is an acronym, actually, and it stands for “Mini Ahupuaʻa for Lifestyle and Mea’ai ​through Aquaponics”… I always get the acronyms kind of mixed up, but yes, I believe that’s the acronym. But Malama also means to take care of in Hawaiian, so it has double, you know, multiple layers of meaning. And we named it that because we saw that what came out of this program was that people learn to care for not just the aquaponics, the plants and the fish, but also each other, right? So it’s a family based program, so from kids all the way to the elders are invited, and they participate, and they all have a role. And so it’s about malama the family and also the Malama, the community, the community building that Ted was talking about, because the families participate in a cohort. So there’s 10 families in a cohort, and they go through the six month program together. And so that was based on what Ilima was doing since 2006-2009 she was already doing this in the in the community, like Ted was talking about, and over time, like we mentioned, people kept being interested. There was a continued demand and interest over the years, and in 2018 we had an opportunity to apply for a research project, a pilot research project with NIMHD. And as Ilima and I were talking, I said, you know, aquaponics, what you doing with aquaponics in the community? You have this program that you developed, and she’s been, you know, gathering grants and implementing these this program whenever grants were available and funding was available. But I asked, you know, we talked about, can we turn this into a research project? And before that, I was a student, and there were other public health and students from other fields at  UH helping Ilima gather data over the years, like we did some focus groups and interviews, we did a little bit of surveying, and we kept seeing that there’s something happening with health, right? People were reporting to us that they love the aquaponic system, they love the Mini Ahupuaʻa concept, they felt more connected as a family, and so we had some pilot data, but we thought, hey, how about adding on a clinical would the community be okay with that. And of course, that’s sensitive, right? We had to make sure that the community was okay with that, because collecting clinical data, there’s been so many atrocities and ethical breaches in many communities, but especially native communities, and so we wanted to make sure that the community felt like that was appropriate. And so we tested that through this pilot project in 2018 and then so that time, we collected blood pressure. We did blood pressure, we collected BMI, hip to waist ratio and a behavioral survey. So we use that as a pre-post measure, and we found some promising changes with the first cohort that we tested in Waimanalo. And then through Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, we were able to test the random a weightless, randomized control design where we recruited two cohorts of 10 families each, so 20 families total, and we added on, this time, a finger prick where we could measure cholesterol and hemoglobin, A1C to look at diabetes and changes in cholesterol and so, but we made sure to always talk to the community about it, to make sure that was okay. Things that we learned was, you know, a blood draw is a little bit too invasive. I was told also, oh, to really measure dietary changes, you should collect the urine. But that was like a no go with the community, right? So it’s always balancing, like, what is best practice in, you know, public health with what’s in the community and but like Ilima said, I was really surprised, pleasantly surprised, that people really like the clinicals because it was a good way to get a temperature check on your health. And we were able to say, Oh, your hemoglobin, a1c is a little high. Let’s go, you know, let’s make sure that you get connected with the doctor, or please go see your doctor to double check, to make sure you know you’re not at risk for something. And so it’s been really great. And the nurses and the doctors that come to do the work, because we’re not clinicians. We have a partnership at the medical school here at UH, and they also built a partnership or relationship with the community. So it’s the same, it’s pretty much the same doctors and nurses that come to Waimanalo, and so they’ve come multiple times now, and so there’s that familiarity. And for the doctors and nurses, they’re like, “Wow, we never get outside, right? We never get into the community. This is a chance for us to learn community engagement, to learn how to build relationships”. So it’s been really reciprocally beneficial for the university and the community.

Cody Cotton  29:58

Thank you. Got a got a real clear picture. I appreciate the work you all have done over the years and still currently doing. Still waiting to take my trip to Hawaii. I’ll let you all know. Alright, so speaking of the future, what do you think the next steps are? How do you see the lessons you’ve learned being applied in the work towards health equity for all?

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  30:20

I think Ted spoke about it, that we just have to get there, you know, just do it. And, and Jane has spoke about it as well, is to just implement. We gotta stop talking about things and just do it, you know. And, and the community, like I said earlier, is very receptive and very much, I guess they bought in they they drank the Kool Aid, and they love it, and and I think we have a wahine program that I’m doing for my PhD study, and it’s been amazing just to be able to implement things that the community wants, and have so much participation and action and influence. And really, it really does build health, the ability to I’ve learned a lot from Jane. Trust me, I know how to play the game now, and it really is a game of strategy. We call it konane, and that’s how you build one kingdom in Hawaii, is to play with strategy. And if the community wants to play, we just bring them what they want and what they need, next.

Krystal Lee  31:29

Thanks for that. Iliima Ted,

Ted Radovich  31:32

yeah. So I think one of the things that we learned is that the we can from from the inside as well restructure how institutions operate, and we can change the culture internally. I think, you know, I think I’ve never been a fan of disruption. I see its value sometimes, and sometimes it’s the only choice, but throwing rocks from the outside, while it can have some impact, I think real significant change can occur from the inside, although it’s slower and sometimes less satisfying than throwing rocks, I think our administration has learned some of these lessons that we can still do… we can still fulfill our traditional mandate and serve our traditional clientele, while at the same time by making targeted shifts in how we do business, really significantly improve the way that we serve our community. And we can do, we can do both without, you know, turning over the boat. And so I think taking those, those lessons, and expanding them and, you know, it’s, we’re fortunate to have an administration now that is is open to learning lessons. And so I think if we can continue that, with regard to how the university does business, there is a larger push now within the university, there is always a recognition, you know, at least lip service, that we are a unifying place of learning. But there have been investments to really accelerate realizing that that goal, and I think that that larger institutional change here at the University anyway, can can feed acceleration of change at our college level, and again, just really improving the way, you know, we steward a lot of land, and some of the land in Waimanalo that we do, and that that’s, that’s, that’s a very important kuleana, which is responsibility, privilege and a whole host of things, and that, I think we’re learning lessons to help us improve on fulfilling a kuleana to our broader Hawaii Community, and specifically our Kanaka here in Hawaii. So I’m optimistic about, you know about that. We still got a long way to go, but I think the lessons that we’re learning, others are are also learning, and it will affect, affect some change, hopefully.

Krystal Lee  33:52

I just want to uplift some of what I heard from you all, the idea of just doing the work right? There’s a lot. There’s always going to be a lot to talk about, but we can talk, but we can also do, at the same time. And then secondly, you highlighted Ilima, the importance of going with and strategizing along with the community. And then the idea of culture shifts being possible. And you know the idea that, like to Jane’s point earlier, that culture is part of how we stay healthy. And cultures can shift over time. Cultures inside universities and other organizations and systems can shift to prioritize health if communities are engaged and prioritized in the work. And then to Ted’s point, that you can do both, right? You don’t have to necessarily choose one or the other. So I really appreciate you all highlighting those lessons for us. One of the core beliefs of the podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler, when she says, “All that you touch you change, and all that you change changes you”. And I wonder if any of you. Are willing to tell us, like, how your IRL experience and the beloved community that we’re building with IRL, in IRL, how has that changed you, and how has that allowed you to change your communities?

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  35:14

For me, I believe that IRL demonstrates generosity, generous opportunities, but also generosity in building networks and friendships and lifelong relationships. You know, a lot of programs don’t give you that ability, and they only show you their 10 minute spiel, and it starts here and it ends here, and that’s it. And I see IRL as persistent and consistent with many opportunities, and even more so within the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation’s bigger realm is is like lifelong opportunity and and for me, I see the changes that we’ve been able to implement with the learnings from IRL that have definitely improved a lot of what we do in our community. So mahalo, always to IRL.

Jane Chung  36:03

So I was listening to all the episodes in season one, and what came out to me was relationships, right? And I’ve already known that or learned that, especially from the Waimanalo community, the importance of relationships, but IRL really helped us expand our relationships, like we already talked about, but also elevate the work that we do. And so now we have a five year study that we’re running. We’re in year four, and we’ve expanded to Maui and Hilo, so outside of Waimanalo, so IRL has just really been the seed for us to expand our relationships with other scholars, like minded scholars, that’s really I value that a lot, like Ilima said, just meeting people who are really inspiring and affirming. And I felt like IRL really invested in us as scholars and as people, not just the project, but believed in us, and that was so different from the other programs that I’ve been a part of, or other funding that we’ve gotten. And I was really appreciative that IRL also listened to us and were willing to evolve. And that’s very much like CBPR. Like you gotta, you gotta go with the wave. And I remember, and then I also appreciated the self care like so that’s one of my transformations, to really think about caring for ourselves and not as a selfish thing, but as an act of resistance. And I remember we came together like as COVID was, you know, getting a little better, and we had to, we weren’t able to gather as a cohort and do that, like special trip that year. Usually we we were planning to do and we were planning to do it actually in Hawaii, but instead, Ira helped us pivot, and then we gathered and we had that, like self care retreat, like that was amazing. You know, where in academia or in our careers, are you able to get that kind of care? Like i just i I’ll remember that forever and treasure that, because we all needed that after coming out of the pandemic, to gather, to care for ourselves, to care for for each other. And I remember all the IRL fellows coming together. And it was like adult summer camp. We were all just like, “Oh my God”. Like, hugging each other, sharing stories, some people crying and like, we just really needed that. And you folks were like, “Yeah, let’s go that this is an important part of the work that we do, that’s, this is an important part of health equity”. And so I really appreciate IRL letting me know that letting me kind of like push the boundaries of what our academic spaces should look like.

Cody Cotton  38:49

Wow, wow. That was that was beautifully said. Well, finally, along the same theme as we’re working towards health equity, or equity in general, and against systems of oppression. This work can take a toll on us, as you just stated, can you please share with our listeners how you engage in self care as you do this difficult work?

Ted Radovich  39:12

Alright, I’ll take, I’ll take a turn real quick here. I guess that’s a good question. I think really taking better care of my health has been, you know, making that a proactive I’m like, Ilima is like, I was 15 years since my last doctor visit a while ago. And yeah, realizing that that that’s a privilege to have the insurance that I have through work and stuff, and that I need to take advantage of it and really taking care of my health is beneficial for all aspects of my health, as well as my family and my community, right? And so it also helps that I live, we all do, and work in our, you know, the community that we love, and our community is beautiful. It’s beautiful physically. We’ve got the mountains right there, and the ocean and then just taking a break and just. Just smelling the roses, I think is, I guess it’s a little trite, but it’s easy to not do that, and it’s easy to just, but just breathing for a second, right? Stop, breathe and look around. I think that’s probably one of the most effective ways to do it. And then, you know, surrounding yourself with the community of your choice as well as the community that you’re born into. I think are approaches that I’ve taken.

Jane Chung  40:29

My form of self care is definitely the ocean. I love to surf. I love to be in the ocean. And I got to surf yesterday, and I haven’t been able to surf for a couple weeks, which is a long time for me, especially in the summer. So it was just like, oh, I needed this when I jumped in the water and saw some friends, saw some turtles, saw some dolphins, and so it’s like a mindfulness spot for me. Another thing that, in case Ilima doesn’t mention, is going to the Korean spa. She goes a lot more than I do, for sure, it’s just so funny, because I remember, you know, growing up, I spent six years of my childhood there, and hated going there because they just scrubbed you so hard, and I just didn’t like it as a kid, but she like reintroduced it to me as an adult, and now I like, love it, like I love it, and I usually go only when we’re traveling, because there’s, like, good places on the continent, and so that’s kind of what we do. That’s our tradition. When we’re traveling for, you know, to conferences or professional gatherings together, we’ll like, check out on the map. We’ll Google, like crane sponsor when nearby, and then we’ll always make sure to go and hit it up. So it’s really kind of like revived the practice that I’d hated as a child, but now I love it as an adult, and I gotta thank Ilima for that. She always reminds me, self care is important.

Ilima Ho-Lastimos  41:59

I think I should, I should demonstrate that self care wasn’t ever a part of my life growing up, because in a village setting, you last. And I had to learn self care and social work. And it gave me the ticket that I needed. That self care. You have to take care of yourself first before you could take care of anybody else. And I have used that golden ticket ever since. And I have many forms, and I think it’s important that everybody, whatever it may be, spiritual, mental, physical, emotional, to use that free ticket to self care as much as possible. And I absolutely do.

Cody Cotton  42:36

You all are amazing team. Team Waimanalo, thank you all so much for sharing your story. We deeply appreciate your thoughts, your insights and just being a part of this IRL family. Thank you.

Krystal Lee  42:48

Yes. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you to our listeners, we would love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program LinkedIn page where you can share your thoughts, leave questions for the team. And also don’t forget to subscribe to promising practices for health equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Thank you. Until next time…

Mandy LeBreche  43:35

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Dawn X. Henderson (Cohort 2)

Season 2, Episode 4 | September 24, 2025

• Speakers: Dawn X Henderson, Mandy LeBreche, J. Robin Moon, Krystal Lee

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:21

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I am your host, Krystal Lee and my co host today is J. Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey, Robin!

This season, Robin, as you know, of promising practices, we are exploring the experiences, stories and lessons of our IRL fellows and alumni. And today, I am so pleased to have our cohort 2 alum,Dr. Dawn X. Henderson, with us. Welcome, Dawn!

Dawn X Henderson  01:08

Hey! So excited to be here.

J. Robin Moon 01:11

We’re so glad to have you here with us today. Dawn, before we ask you to tell us about yourself and your work. We invite you to engage with us in one of our signature, IRL promising practices, that is checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So our meetings, we do a quick check in with everybody to help us continuously build connections in our beloved community. So we’re going to do the same here. And today’s check in question is, if you could be anywhere in the world, world, broadly defined right now, where would you be? I’m going to start, I have already told Krystal and some others. I’ve had some unexpected world trip cancellations to different parts of the world this summer… trips that I really look forward to. But then this, you know, being here in New York City when weather is actually rarely amazing, and I get to, like, do my daily routine, have my morning time, and it just been like, so great, to the point I don’t even want to travel anymore. So I really love being at home and ground myself. And I, right now today, I would like to be nowhere other than my home, and I’m going to toss it to Krystal.

Krystal Lee  02:43

Yeah, I also would, I think I would choose home as well. I have been developing my back garden. I started out trying to grow things that we could eat as food, but I have –  this year because of some challenges, weather and so on, and just things not going as expected. I pivoted to flowers, and I am really, really enjoying the bursts of marigolds that I have in my backyard. And I also have some tomatoes, and I have my asparagus.

J. Robin Moon 03:20

She’s got a colony. They’re still coming up…

Krystal Lee  03:24

30 of them. Now it’s so it’s beautiful. And my office over my window overlooks the garden. And I would, I’m just, it’s a sunny, beautiful, windy day outside. I would just love to be sitting outside, and that’s where I’m going when I’m done with this conversation, to just go sit outside and enjoy and do something to move me towards my my hope for next year is that I’ll have plants that welcome monarch butterflies, so like milkweed and so on, lots of bright, beautiful flowers. My next door neighbor, who grew up in this neighborhood, he said that when he was young, there would be thousands of Monarch butterflies when he was young, but, you know, because of all kinds of different changes and so on, we he just doesn’t see them anymore, and I want to try to bring them back. So that’s my goal for my garden. And I’m just going to go sit out there and enjoy that. I’ll toss it to you Dawn. Where would you like to be?

Dawn X Henderson  04:23

Okay? So I heard “world”, so I’m going to lean into all that I am and all that those before me were. And so in truth, I want to be outside of the universe. I want to be in the celestial bodies. I want to see the birth of a star. I want to watch Earth from afar. I really do. I am not practicing this. I want to see the planets. I want to see the sun. I want to see what the world looks like from a more macro place. Because I think sometimes we can get caught up in our individual worlds, and sometimes. So I would love to, like, sit back and watch and understand how we are connected to the broader, broader universe. And oftentimes, I think looking out at the night sky, you know, I do a lot of wondering, just wondering what’s out there. And so I would like to sit and be there and understand what’s out there while I’m also loving what’s out there. So that’s my place, the destination. If anybody’s building a spaceship, let me be the first passenger. I’m on it.

J. Robin Moon 05:29

She created a poem out of this checking question outside the universe.

Krystal Lee  05:36

I love it. One of my favorite things about Dawn. So Dawn, if you wouldn’t mind, just tell us and our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Dawn X Henderson  05:45

Yes. So I am the daughter of Jacqueline Louise Ward and James Willie Henderson. I’m a middle child, youngest to Badia Henderson, oldest to Darul Islam Henderson. I’m a daughter who talked to trees as a child. Believed that the sky and the clouds could talk back. I oftentimes would go hug a tree and say, “God, do you love me?” You know, sad conversations. I was I was often quiet. I’m a proud mother of twins Atesia and to T’Jai, a proud mother of a 15 year old that I call Day. You know? I’m a reflection of those who had to be enslaved, right, those who were indigenous to this land. I am a representation of those who kind of stood on the banks of Honduras, on the banks of Jamaica, on the banks of South Carolina, in Georgia. I am a representation of those who had to travel and migrate from the south to the north, to the east and the west. I find myself now back in the South, in a place called North Carolina. I’m a lover. I’m a lover of myself. I’m a lover of community. I’m a lover of black people. I’m a lover of black indigenous people. I’m a soul writer. I’ve been writing ever since I was four. You know, sometimes writing in journals, and I’ve learned to open up my journals and open it up to the world, right? I’m a community cultivator. I like to say I’ve been cultivating community for a long, long time, starting out as a middle school science teacher, and found myself drifting into the field of community psychology. So I am all in everything a representation of many women, of many black women whose bodies have had to silence themselves from the suffering they’ve had to experience, but at the same time dreaming and having big dreams for me to be here. So I am all those things, and I’m just happy to be representing all those people.

J. Robin Moon 07:52

Thank you so much, beautiful. Please tell us the story of how you came to health equity work and what health equity looks like to you?

Dawn X Henderson  08:03

Oh, okay, this is, this is one of those questions I was like, pondering for me. So I’m going to say there are many stories, and I know I cannot adequately bring in all of them, right? But I want to acknowledge that I came to an orientation towards justice and an orientation towards healing justice because of my DNA right? My DNA holds memories of black Indigenous women, women who’ve had to suffer, as I said, who have had to carry the burden of being a woman in this country. The women who have had to die too soon. The women who have had to die from heart failure. The women who have had to die from cancer. The women who have had to die from “the womb disease”, because nobody knew what it was called back then. You know, I was called into this work because of my father and my father’s father. My father had Alzheimer’s, and we had to navigate a medical system that was quite difficult. Did not believe in his inability to communicate verbally, and only sometimes the look in his eyes would tell you his pain, and yet, folks were not responsive, right? I came into this work, because I’ve had to witness violence, gun violence, drug addiction, and all of those things. And I like to say that I had a body who moved through the system we call the public education system, in the US and understanding the trauma of that. And so by moving through that work, there is no doubt that I have to, there’s no doubt what moves through my blood, right? And so because of that, it has to inspire me and compel me to address the very systems that have led to that in order to change them, you know, in order to change them. So I believe health equity really looks like all of us. All people. Thriving. I believe it’s in the possibility that we all have access to the resources, to the care, and I say a system of care that truly values our dignity and our humanity. I believe it’s a place where we all get to exist physically, in all the ways we are – psychologically, spiritually, you know what I’m saying? I believe it’s a place of promise. I believe that it is a place of possibility, as Dr Shawn Ginwright talks about. And I believe that it is possible, even though sometimes and quite often we can think that it is not.

J. Robin Moon 10:39

Thank you, drilling down a little more specifically and your, you know, to your personal work. Now, the title of your IRL project, when you were a fellow, was “ A model for violence prevention and health promotion”. Can you tell us a little bit about the project itself, and then the about the community where your research work was based in.

Dawn X Henderson  11:02

Yeah, so I am Cohort Two. We were [Team] Guilford County, North Carolina, which is probably considered the Piedmont area of North Carolina. And so our particular work was looking at a model that we called Structured Dialog. It’s actually something that was primarily facilitated by Dr Brian Sims and we wanted to look at the ways that structured dialog actually shifts and changed the relationships that happen between home and school. You know, our theory of change was if we are changing how teachers and parents, right, how families and educators talk to each other, communicate with each other, create a shared vision for what an ideal school was, that they’re changing their relationship right? So teachers change the relationship with parents. When teachers change the relationship with parents, they change the relationship with themselves. They change the relationship with young people. And so we believe that by modeling, by using adults to model different ways to engage and relate to each other, that ultimately we’re changing how young people relate, right? Because adults are often the models in the classroom and the models in the home. So yeah, that was our project. And you know, it was quite enlightening. We were right at the cusp of covid, so we had gone into our second year when covid hit right? Like a lot of people, but I think the most beautiful thing that I want to reflect on was in the beginning of the project, before we even started to introduce them to structured dialog, was we were able to engage black families in telling us a dream. What’s your dream? Tell us the dream. What do you dream of for your children? What are the school you dream about? Right? What is, what is an ideal school that you can dream and I think that’s the most powerful piece, right? By sitting with people who have been the most marginalized in the world, to dream together, and to not only dream together, but when we use those dreams to bring school administrators and teachers in that and to hear that and say, Okay, and how do we get there? And how do we get there, we use the structured dialog, model, right, to change our relationships for us to get there.

J. Robin Moon 13:17

So you worked with the school systems, and what’s the age group of young people when you say that?

Dawn X Henderson  13:24

Yes, yes, yes. So we actually worked, not with a public school system. We worked with the charter school, charter school, and these were young people. The children were between kindergarten and I believe at the time, school went up to fifth grade.

J. Robin Moon 13:39

and you sat with the students and the families for the structured dialog?

Dawn X Henderson  13:44

Yeah, it was a family affair often. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, meeting in the evening, feeding the parents. We would have childcare for the parents, but sometimes the children were there and we were engaged in a practice of using dialog right, generating dialog around ideal visions for a school, generating dialog around what does it mean to, quote, unquote, “reduce suspension” here right, to minimize the prevalence of violence. But how do we do that by working on the relationships that were happening between the adults.

J. Robin Moon 14:20

Thank you.

Krystal Lee  14:23

What do you see, Dawn, as the promising practices that were involved in your work and maybe emerged from the work or or were actually a part of the work that you were doing in this project?

Dawn X Henderson  14:39

Yes. So I this is, I think this is a really great question. And at first I was like, Oh, it was the relationships. But I think I alluded to this before. I believe the most promising practice is actually something that catapulted my own, my own career, actually, from 2019 was facilitating space. And curating space for black families to dream and to dream of ideal conditions for their children to thrive in schools. And the second part of that practice that emerged was our ability to kind of leverage, you know, the weight that we had – the RWJF project with school administrators and teachers, right? So again, we articulated the dream, and we brought it to them and said, Okay, how do we get there, right? And to see school administrators and teachers get on board with that dream. And so for me, this is like folks who do human centered design, they talk about designing from the edges, right? When you design something from the edges and when? And we always think about those who are the most marginalized, you know what I mean? And I think about particularly youth violence and in schools, we know that those are black bodied folks, right? We know quite often those are black parents. You know, black caregivers who are excluded oftentimes or find themselves engaging in hostile school environments. So when you ask them to step outside the margins and become centered in that, right, the edge is shifted. And I think that was the most powerful piece of the work, because we saw that when they are creating the vision, and they say, “We want to invite you into our vision”, it began to shift the relationship that was happening between the school administrators, the educators and the parents,

J. Robin Moon 16:37

So facilitating the folks to move from the margins to the center… That’s the promising practice. Beautiful.

Dawn X Henderson  16:46

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Krystal Lee  16:52

That is truly a beautiful description of a different way of being. You are trying to do work to help people live better lives. And it seems to me like it should be obvious that you engage folks in, you know, things that are intended to impact them positively, but sometimes it’s many times it doesn’t end up being that way.

J. Robin Moon 17:28

Because, because they might not have seen it before. Yeah, yeah, that’s the reimagining part, and that’s the beginning of the transformation.

Dawn X Henderson  17:36

Yes, yes.

Krystal Lee  17:39

Thank you for sharing that Dawn. It really is a it really is a shift for for me, in terms of seeing how, how this work can be done. But you mentioned, you talked about, like sharing the vision, sharing the dream with the IRL program, and having the space to do some of this work. Can you tell us a little about your – How would you describe your experience with IRL?

Dawn X Henderson  18:09

Yes, so I think my experience with IRL was kind of like empowering on one side and stagnant on the other. So I think that being a part of the IRL experience, and being called into the IRL experience, I think that they asked the teams to come up with bold ideas. Right? Bold ideas? So structured dialog, method, that’s a bold idea!

J. Robin Moon 18:41

Yeah, I would say so…

Dawn X Henderson  18:43

To try to address youth violence, and to do it by not targeting young people, right? So I want to, like note that right. To say that we understand that there’s relationships, right, that have to shift if we’re talking about addressing this symptom or whatever. I think that it was stagnant at the time, because I think we did what we what I was supposed to do, right? Come in, learn about big policy, small policy. And I’m saying

J. Robin Moon 19:16

you’re allowed, you’re allowed…

Dawn X Henderson  19:18

come in and talk about dissemination, right? Like, you know, the beautiful thing about “Yes, you guys should create a dissemination plan” and we got to write a blog, and we created an issue brief. And I would say all the things that kept me stuck and still. The things that were empowering that I think probably, I’m not sure the story can be captured in a very kind of methodological way, in terms of how we’re thinking about it – was the relationships that was offered to me, and so one relationship was, our team were granted coaches, mentors, and one of my mentors was a white, Jewish man during that time. And I’m gonna get emotional, and I’m okay with that, because there were times he would say, you know, let’s, let’s get on a call. And he would like, why are you so quiet? I’m noticing the man is dominating the conversation. I’m noticing there are things that is being said, and I know that that’s your practice, that’s you’re a community psychologist, he would say. And after that, after IRL, he stayed in my life. He chose to stay in my life as a mentor. I am not paying him. He has been a champion of mine. Two years ago, I received an award through my division in APA, which was a you know award for a lifetime contribution to community – American Psychological Association. And I received, you know, the prestigious contributions to community psych award, right? And that was really his advocacy, his nomination. I will have a piece in The American Journal of Community Psychology coming out that is a first person narrative around my own healing and love that I had to find in research. So he has been an advocate, a champion, right? And I just want to say that IRL was the vehicle for that, and that’s something you can’t necessarily quantify or qualify. Another important relationship was Miss Regina Jackson, who was in Cohort Two, and we reconnected right when I had transitioned from Duke University and I started a nonprofit. I was in a leadership position in a nonprofit, locally rooted community organization, and she was my executive coach. And if anybody knows anything about Regina Jackson, she is straight to the point, straight shooter. She’s a black woman who doesn’t play, and she would have to give it to me real at times. You know, we met monthly, and she was actually here with me when my father passed last year and stepped out of coaching role and stepped in as black woman, sister.

Dawn X Henderson  22:31

That’s what I’m saying. You can’t qualify or quantify these things. Think that there were experiences, and I wanted something that was a really beautiful experience was, I think it was going into our second year, and it was a team may have been cohort three from Team Hawaii. And they decided to bring in, I think it was different herbs and oils and what they would consider to be more indigenous Hawaiian practices into a facilitated session. They had us smelling, and we were singing and we were moving. And I said, this is research, right? This is this is what it has to be, and needs to look like. And I think all of those things were so impactful, right, so transformative to me. And so I think, you know, we’re guided into spaces for a reason, and those are the things that I think continue to inspire me. Because one, I want to pay it forward how Dr Tom Wolfe, that’s his name, has paid it forward to me. So I’m committed to mentoring and doing pro bono coaching to black women who are early career folks. You know what I mean? Because I believe that that’s what was given to me. I’m about disrupting how research looks in the world. And I believe in kind of this concept of a healing, centered lens of research. And so again, and I lean into the edges. I lean into the edges. I move back. I engage in the principle of moving back. And listening to folks who may not have a PhD, a master’s degree, a bachelor’s degree, even I would say associate’s degree, I have found that it’s often young people and those folks who are breathing, living, eating, digesting the air, and that’s where I learned from the most.

J. Robin Moon 24:23

That’s right. I think you’re speaking giving examples of ways to defy what the current structure in society defines as leadership, leadership development, and what is evidence based. I will repeat the name Tom Wolfe, Regina Jackson, another fellow, fellow from core two and Team Hawaii from cohort three is actually going to be speaking to us in the later episodes. Yes,

Dawn X Henderson  24:55

so please tell them whether they remember me at their session.

J. Robin Moon 25:02

okay, well, you already alluded to what your future started to look like because the Cohort Two was graduated. 2020 is that right? Okay, so you’ve had five years.

Dawn X Henderson  25:14

2020 What’s it? I thought it was 2021

J. Robin Moon 25:18

Is that 2021 I think 2020 was it? 2020 okay. 2020, 2017, and 2020 Yeah. Okay. So we’ve had five years of what, what the post IRL feature has been. So let me ask you this, what had been your next steps? I think you already alluded that you are a recovering academic now, yes, how do you how do you see the lessons you’ve learned from IRL, you know, being applied in the work towards health equity for all since your graduation of 2020?

Dawn X Henderson  25:53

Oh, yes. So I just want to say, I do keep my pinky toe in the academic realm, just because I’m trying to change how teaching happens, actually, on another level. So, you know, I still try to do adjunct [teaching] if I can, to shift, to shift what that looks like in higher education as much as I can. You know, given our climate. So much, I really want to reflect on what I alluded to, right, like believing in the edges, right? As somebody say, “believe in black women first, Believe, believe in black families, believe in black indigenous people”, right? Like, don’t question or interrogate, no. And so I think because of that, you know, I transitioned into the nonprofit realm. And I like to say that I really came into an organization that was trying to engage in more liberatory practices. And, you know, I was a part of that, right? It was a whole new functional area, quote, unquote, division that was being created that we call community driven research, you know what I mean? And I created a whole strategy on doing that by sitting alongside and walking alongside black parents. And specifically, these were black moms, you know what I mean, so you can think about all the lives that they’re holding, or whatever. And I think that I helped that nonprofit get over $4 million dollars, you know what I mean, through our strategy around doing community driven research, right? But I want to say that was in that work that I realized my spirit, my soul, was being kind of torn. You know what I mean? It was kind of being disrupted, feeling like it was at a place of demarcation, you know what I mean? Split in the middle, and I had to, like, you know, again, I lost my father last year, and I had to return to a conversation I had with myself a long time ago. What is my destiny? What am I supposed to be doing? And so I left, right, and I started, We Claim Research. And so We Claim Research is all about, Robin, everything that I alluded to before Krystal. It is about disrupting how we think research can happen. You know what I mean? I’m actually about to post a blog on Sunday about what does it really mean to listen and witness someone? Yyou know what I mean, we don’t talk about that when we’re designing protocols and focus groups, but it’s like, how do we really listen someone’s existence into being? Right? What does it mean to bear witness to someone’s story? You know? I mean, we’re when we’re listening, when we’re gathering stories versus data. I mean, let’s make them very human. And what is our responsibility? I feel like that’s another thing we don’t talk a lot about. It’s like, what is our responsibility outside of IRB, when we’re collecting these stories, where do these stories exist, and how are they accessible to the community who said, “I’m gonna give you consent”, right?

J. Robin Moon 29:01

Data sovereignty…

Dawn X Henderson  29:04

Yes, yes. What does it mean for us to actually sit down and say, How should I translate this? Maybe I don’t need to write a freaking peer review fear article. What does it mean if it is a piece of art, if it’s dance, if it’s theater, if it’s something else, if it’s bringing the concept of seeds in the braids back, you know what I mean. And what does that mean in order for that community to use that, to leverage that knowledge, in order to maintain their ability to continue to heal, their ability to continue to love, their ability to continue to dream. And I will say also, you know, short plug, it’s coming out soon, it landed me in a place where I am publishing my book, a guide, right? And the book is called “We get to Love, Heal and Dream”. It’s about building community with ourselves and others. You know, as a community psychologist, my training has often been outside. You know, think of community outside, and I like to say we have to work on community inside, too, because what we do to this is what we do to that, right? So, how are we shifting that out? And so beginning to again, acknowledge the ways that I’ve sat down with everyday community members as co authors of their stories, as translators of that, and that’s the kind of work I want to continue to do, because I do believe in, again, the existence of parallel worlds. And while we know that this is a the conditions that we’re in right now can be quite daunting. They can make us believe that we are powerless. We can feel helpless, right? And we can feel hopeless. I believe there’s the other world right, there’s the powerful, right? There’s the hopeful, right? There’s, I know we can, you know, all of those things. And so that’s the kind of work I want to continue to lean into. And what I feel really again when I’m reflecting on my journey in IRL. The last thing I do want to shout out, and this is John Schwabish from the Urban Institute. I don’t think, I don’t think I also want to, I have to acknowledge John and the beauty that he shifted. So I do want to acknowledge that he was really helping us to think through data in a different way, in a more visual way. But then I think me, when I think about my DNA, was like, oh, but how can we even think of it beyond graphs and bars? Again, what does it look like to become a piece of theater? You know what I mean, just different kinds of work. Yeah, yes. And so I do want to acknowledge, you know, I think again, that was a beautiful connection and a beautiful experience that kind of sparked, put a little spark within my own mind to even challenge myself even further.

J. Robin Moon 32:03

You’ve been busy since in the last five years, so you reclaim research, and congratulations on your publication. And all the information, including Jonathan Schwabish at Urban Institute will share with our listeners in the show notes. Thank you,

Krystal Lee  32:21

Thanks dawn for that. That struck me as such a beautiful reflection on your experience, and I think you have raised some questions that others who are engaging in community, engaged research and wanting to do more of this, can think through in order to do right by the communities and do right by the work and by the people and even by themselves as individuals. And so I’m grateful for the reflection that you’ve shared that will hopefully get us to this world, this new world of possibilities, and, you know, happiness and hopefulness that is so antithetical to some of what we’re dealing with at this time. So, thank you for sharing that. I want to, you know, share about one of our core beliefs in this podcast team, which is it’s summed up in the words of Octavia Butler, who shared that you know “all that you touch, you change, and all that you change changes you”. Will you please tell us how IRL, our Beloved Community has changed you, and how do you think that You have changed either the program or your community?

Dawn X Henderson  33:44

Yes, so I think the community, as I reflected on the experiences, the relationships that were developed, I don’t necessarily think that it changed me. I believe that it was an invitation back to a version of me that existed, that existed before I was indoctrinated inside of a historically white institution and indoctrinated in public education, and it was probably Dawn at the age of about four or five, right? The Dawn who was highly creative. My mom thought I was going to be an architect at the age of four, by some drawing to some multistory building. She sung a lot. She danced freely. She was fearless. She was okay, like I said, talking to grass, talking to the trees, and knowing that the Earth talks back to her, she knew that. She ran through the water uninhibited. She was not afraid to step outside, to be different, to be weird, to not necessarily always have people who liked her. And I think that the relationships that I developed helped me reconnect with her. The degree to which I changed IRL, I think you may have to do a follow up interview, you know, ask people that one. But I do believe in my existence, and my existence as a black bodied, being in the world, as a woman body, being in the world wherever I stand, it’s a radical act of resistance, right? Because we know that there have been systems designed to annihilate us, to murder us early. And when I’m able to stand anywhere. I am transforming. I’m transforming that space. And so I wholeheartedly believe, just in my existence, I’m doing that.

J. Robin Moon 36:11

I so hear you. You know, my birthday is coming up, so I have been in, you know, I set a daily intention, and starting today, until the birthday for whole week, it’s going to be I will celebrate my life today. And I am hearing you and feeling you through all my body right now. Yes, yes.

Dawn X Henderson  36:33

I don’t use birthdays anymore. I tell people Earth Strongs. You know, the birthday is the day we were born. But every year is our Earth strong? Celebrate, celebrate it as as the 365.25 as much as you can.

J. Robin Moon 36:47

Yes, celebrating our bodies, our lives, our existence, is the act of radical. Radical act, yeah,

Dawn X Henderson  36:58

yeah, of resistance in love.

J. Robin Moon 37:02

Okay. Finally, we’ve come to the final question for you, Dawn working towards equity and against systems of oppression that we’ve talked about so far can take its toll every day. So we ask this question to all our guests, can you share with our listeners how you engage in self care as you do this difficult work?

Dawn X Henderson  37:25

Yes, so I literally just got a phone call from my primary care physician who was like, “Oh yeah, you’re gonna have to increase your exercise to about 50 minutes, 3 times a week. I was like, “I’m getting older!”  But anyway. I will say again. Over the past year, I have been dedicated to ancestral veneration. I have created my own altar that acknowledges those who have passed before me. Every morning I rise, I say my prayer, I give my meditations in the AM, you know what I mean, and I think that that has helped me to kind of reroute myself. I do belly dancing on Sundays. I literally was dancing this morning when I have no reason to. I love engaging in small ways to play. Actually, I organized what I call play activities here, like every quarter. So I did a Black mamas kickball, Black mamas skate. We did Black Mama’s nap. We’re gonna do black we did Black mamas camp out. We’re gonna do black mamas make Kung Fu flicks. You can ask me about that later. We all grew up in like, you know, the 80s, when we were watching Sunday morning kung fu flicks, and we were like, We should do that. We should make a movie of us just being silly and doing that. So we are that’s just something, you know, again, inviting play back into my life, or whatever. I read romance novels. I struggle through non fiction, but I’ve committed myself to read some good non fiction from the beginning to the end, and not just, you know, certain chapters or whatever. I’ve been cooking more, eating out less and just practicing loving on me, loving on we. Beautiful dream right here.

J. Robin Moon 39:29

Dr. Dawn X. Henderson, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. Your playful energy and spirit are infectious, and we really deeply appreciate your insights.

Dawn X Henderson  39:42

Thank you so much and so happy and precious, precious energy all around us. Y’all be blessed.

Krystal Lee  39:51

Thank you so much. Dawn. Thank you, and thank you to our listeners. We would love to hear from you. What promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts and leave questions for the team, and don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Thank you for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time…

Mandy LeBreche  40:35

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners, for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team Boston (Cohort 7)

Season 2, Episode 3 | September 12, 2025

• Hosted by:  J. Robin Moon and Mandy LaBreche
• Guests: Davine Holness and Shoba Ramanadhan

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

Ian, this is the promising practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

J. Robin Moon 00:21

Hello and welcome back to promising practices for health equity, the podcast created by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I am your host. J. Robin Moon, sitting in for Krystal Lee and my co host today is Mandy LaBreche, Associate Director of Operations for IRL. Hey Mandy!

Mandy  00:42

Hey Robin!

J. Robin Moon 00:45

In this season, we are featuring the experiences, stories and lessons of our IRL fellows and alumni. Today, we have the pleasure of speaking with our IRL cohort seven, the last cohort from Boston, Massachusetts. We’re happy to welcome Shoba Ramanadhan and Davine Holness to the podcast. Welcome friends!

Shoba an Davine  01:08

Thank you, Robin and Mandy, happy to be here.

Mandy LeBreche  01:11

Yeah, we’re so happy to have both of you with us today. And before we ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your work, we invite you to get engaged with us in one of our signature IRL promising practices, which is checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in our work towards health equity. So at the beginning of all of our meetings, we do a quick check in to help us continuously build connections in our beloved community. So our check-in question for today is, if you could have any other job, what would it be?

And I can kick us off while all of you think about it. I always say that if I wasn’t working in public health, that my dream job would be to be a phys ed teacher. And all my friends and family kind of laugh, because they’re like, for a dream job that is very attainable, but I just feel like I didn’t go down that track in college. And I actually did look into it, like going back, like, if there’s some kind of, like, accelerated master’s degree, I could get to teach Phy Ed and it was really like, I couldn’t find anything. Like, they used to have certain programs for people without an education background, but they don’t have those programs anymore. I did look into it during the heart of the pandemic. So, yeah, I think I would be, I think I would want to be a Phy Ed teacher. I just love kids and young people. I love movement. I’m super into sports and activities that get your body moving, whether it’s like, just recreationally or super competitively. So I think, I think I would like that if I wasn’t doing this

Davine  03:03

Physical education. Is that what “Phy Ed” is short for?

Mandy LeBreche  03:09

Yeah, yeah, physical education or gym teacher. I’ll toss it to you, Robin,

J. Robin Moon 03:17

Thanks, Mandy, you would have been a great teacher. I already know it. It’s not too late.I’m an immigrant who started high school in this country, and I went to undergraduate where it was very much like a classical studies kind of school. So I didn’t know that architecture could be a major. If I were to do it all over again, I would have been… I think I definitely would have studied architecture and urban planning, like, like a civil engineering maybe one or the other to, like, build and rebuild cities like [from the] ground up. There’s so many places that need it right now, and there are also many rural, small, smaller villages, like anywhere, including in the mountains and, you know, the seaside. I would love to building that. I think that might be a little too late to become that, but I can. There are things I can do to be part of that. But yeah, that’s what I think about. I’ll toss it to Davine.

Davine  04:13

Okay, if I could have any other job, I would be a star on Broadway. If I need to ground it in reality, then I would teach like children’s theater. But if we’re not facing this in reality, I would be a star on Broadway. I would be playing Joanne in “Rent”, which would still be lovely.

Mandy LeBreche  04:32

I love that. I’m obsessed with seasons of love, and I’m singing it all the time up in here.

Shoba  04:40

So I have been saying this for years, that if I had another job, I would have an aromatherapy shop on a beach, and I think now I’m going to add crafts to it. So aroma therapy and, you know, space for people to come and be creative and on a beach, that’s me.

J. Robin Moon 05:01

Friends. I think these are all very attainable in a lot of ways. Now we’re gonna actually get into the conversation. Please tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves. Let’s start with you. Devine,

Davine  05:17

We decided to bring you poems to introduce ourselves. So yes, I brought a poem to introduce you to me. I am from a long line of women who take in all the village children and talk to their plants, who learn from nature and from every bad situation. From dozens of cousins, most of whom are actually related to me. I am from salt and water, ocean sweat, tears and chicken foot soup, from people who were strong because there was no other choice. I am from proud Jamaicans who know how to work hard and know how to have a good time. From collectors, mediators and storytellers. Pillars of the community who have practiced social work since before colonizers coined the term. I’m from self taught musicians teaching others how to be self taught, singing their ancestors songs in a strange land. I’m from all three corners of a triangular trade route that marred history and the Atlantic with blood. I’m from a pizza shop on Fourth Avenue where my mom taught me phonics by writing on the napkins from extra homework assigned either at my parents whim or because we asked a question about our regular homework. From libraries, drama club and a karaoke machine. I am from a vibrant community of immigrants and their children. From an early start to activism, organizing against our own separate and unequal education. I am from a bittersweet syncretism that kept us safe. I’m from lineages of pain, persistence and promise. I am from rest as a privilege we cannot afford, and an ongoing struggle to reclaim rest as a birthright. I am from “pay it forward” and “pass it on”. That’s me.

J. Robin Moon 07:03

Wow, wow, wow. Thank you.

J. Robin Moon 07:08

We want that to put on the show notes, I think Davine.

Shoba  07:14

I learned about you in that.

Davine  07:15

It was bespoke. It was created just for this moment.

Mandy 07:19

Wow!

J. Robin Moon 07:20

no, but you have the honor to follow that.

Shoba  07:26

Oh, yeah, good luck. So yeah, I did. And I am from poem as well. I am from Indian parents banging around as loud as possible early on weekends when I was a teenager. I am from Saris of mustard and maroon, turquoise and purple. Sounds of the soccer field deep in the heart of Texas. I am from russem as a source of comfort and chilly crab on East Coast Parkway. I am from I love yous and being called Kanem, I am from the chaos family, a grandfather who served in the British Indian Army and then the Indian Army, a grandmother who led by example, civil servants, teachers and a proud college graduate given a parade on an elephant because he was the first in his village. I am from a plane ride to the US with $7 in a pocket.That’s me.

J. Robin Moon 08:20

Wow. Thank you for taking this inspiring introduction to the next level. Thank you so much. Yeah,

Mandy LeBreche  08:28

Those are beautiful. What a great idea as a way to introduce yourself.

Shoba  08:32

Wow. We did it at a workshop recently, and we set a record of making people cry in a workshop as quickly as anyone had before, because people really opened up and sort of set the stage for really engaging all day.

Mandy LeBreche  08:47

Yeah, that was beautiful. Thank you to you both. Okay, so I got the next question, and it’s, please tell us a story of how you came to your health equity work and what health equity looks like to you. Shoba, do you want to start?

Shoba  09:04

Sure. I think about being a graduate student and working at a YMCA as a program evaluator, and just being struck by how different the programs looked in practice versus what was on paper and what was on you know, reports. I was also really impressed by the commitment that staff had to the predominantly black and brown youth that they served. At the same time. I was watching how their expertise, their dedication, their commitment, weren’t really lifted up, and if anything, they were faulted when, you know, programs didn’t get run a certain way, but it was really because they had not been trained or supported or encouraged. So to me, the health equity work that I do feels really focused on this idea of rich knowledge, expertise and commitment that staff have in community based organizations, particularly since so many CBO staff come from the communities they serve, there’s this deep connection and commitment. And so the health equity work that I’ve been doing really focuses on what assets sit in community spaces, whose careers or contributions are often undervalued, and how do we recenter their expertise, things like that. And so I’ve been doing variations of this work for about 20 years in varied forms, both in the US and also in India, but it always, for me, comes back to the power of people who are doing the work.

J. Robin Moon 10:26

Thank you for sharing that.

Davine  10:28

I’m still thinking about Shoba’s answer and like I didn’t know until we were preparing for this that Shoba started out in the YMCA, but it shows like it makes sense, that your value of the people doing the work came from there. For me, I came to this work through my work as a social worker, which was just kind of like in me, for as long as I can remember, like I was mediating between my sister and my cousin when I was really little, and like, asking fellow children questions, and then they would be, like, “as me more questions!” And I am also an eldest daughter of immigrants. So yeah, I became a therapist. The degree was mostly a formality by that point, and I started… I graduated from social work school in 2017 in a political moment when I was just feeling a lot of anger, and I felt determined to have my work that I was doing day to day be pushing for justice. I was seeking a way to like, support the communities that I was a part of and the communities that supported me. So my dream job, which is the job that brought me to this project, was working at Boston GLASS, which is a community center for LGBTQ plus youth of color, and I did not expect that I would become a researcher as part of that process, but it seemed like a really great opportunity to uplift the work that was being done at Boston GLASS and then broader other communities and other organizations like Boston GLASS.

J. Robin Moon 11:55

Thank you so much, both for sharing that. Now about your IRL project. The title of your project is “Identifying practice based strategies to promote mental health among LGBTQ plus youth of color in the context of structural racism and anti LGBTQ plus stigma”. Davine, please tell us about the project and about the community where your research is based.

Shoba  12:21

Yes, I’ll start with the community, because Boston GLASS is such a special community, and it is a physical manifestation of the broader LGBTQ+ people of color community. When you walk into Boston GLASS, everyone feels at home, and for some of our youth, it’s the only place that feels like home. It’s a community center that serves youth, ages 13 to 29 depending on the program. It might stop at 25 and it offers a wide range of services. The heart and soul is the drop in center, where you might just see young people hanging out, taking a nap, having some food, watching Drag Race or some musical or some reality TV show. The Queer Ultimatum was a big one, and it’s really connected to the ballroom community. So different houses will come together to compete. They, during the week, will practice, their vogueing, and then at certain events, we’ll have balls where people will be competing. And that’s it’s sort of like the beating heart of Boston GLASS, it is a really powerful way to get young people in the door and connected to resources and health supports that they need.

So our project is focusing on specifically how organizations like GLASS are tailoring the evidence based interventions that they’re given to actually meet the needs of the population they serve. We know that the vast majority of the evidence based interventions that we’re taught were created with and for CIS het, white people with money and power, which doesn’t reflect the population that we’re serving. And so there’s a lot of creative tailoring that has to happen so that we’re actually meeting young people’s needs. So we wanted to study how that works at GLASS, how it works at other orgs like GLASS, with the ultimate goal of broadening what counts as an evidence based intervention. Ballroom, for example, I get to see firsthand how that makes a huge difference in young people’s mental health, and that’s really hard to fund. Same thing with housing services and getting young people fed. It makes so much of a difference. If young people have their basic needs met, then they can meet their mental health needs. But that’s really hard to find. So we want to, we want to create an evidence base for that kind of work, study what’s working and broaden those strategies.

Mandy LeBreche  14:47

How long has Boston GLASS been around?

Speaker 4  14:50

It started in 1995 so we’re coming up on our 30 year anniversary. It really has been a pillar of like the low. Local Boston queer community.

Mandy LeBreche  15:02

Okay. Next question is, ooh, this one’s kind of open ended and kind of broad. So I’m curious how you two will interpret. How would you describe your experience with IRL?

Shoba  15:11

So I was first introduced to IRL when I was invited to lead a couple of workshops. So I got to come in and hear about all these amazing projects, see these wonderful groups of community and university based researchers, and just, I don’t know, enjoy the spirit of IRL. And so I then, after doing it a couple times, I kept telling the people running it like, I really need to do this. This is going to be life changing. And every year the call would come out and it wouldn’t be a fit, because I don’t do work in environmental justice, I don’t do work in fatherhood, whatever it is. Finally a call came out that did fit. And so, yeah, I think I was already sold well before I walked in on the first official day. And I think of IRL as really being life changing, career changing, and personally, life changing. I haven’t been in a space that is so centered on impact, so centered on community. Yeah, in this way, I think there’s just something about the emphasis on community, and that can be defined in so many different ways, right? And that’s the beauty of it. But centering the range of communities that we all are existing in, contributing to, avoiding harm of. So IRL has just been, yeah, just sort of a magical space. I think, to me, one of the best ways to describe it, a couple of us a few years ago, said, you can walk into the IRL meeting, and it’s almost like you’ve put down a backpack of some sort of bricks or weights or something, like everyone is just able to breathe easier. And I think that’s probably particularly true for folks who have multiply marginalized identities in the spaces they operate in, but that ability to just kind of put that down and be with other people, and not that it always goes smoothly. I think that’s the other thing, right? It’s not that everyone’s being so polite that it always goes smoothly, but there is space for people to learn and to do better and be better. So there’s a safety in that that I think also allows people to grow more than if you have to be so careful and, you know, sort of walking on eggshells. And then lastly, I would just say nobody has swag like IRL. I think I even have one of my mugs here today.

J. Robin Moon 17:29

I think it’s Mandy. Thank you, Mandy, you’ve done right by us. Sophisticated designs.

Mandy LeBreche  17:35

I don’t know, do you have the t-shirt though? Shoba, the limited run t-shirt with a typo in the name of the program. Remember that?

Shoba  17:44

I remember that, no, I don’t have that one. But I will say to me, it’s not just like, oh, you gave us a fancy water bottle, like, to me, that has such a warm sentiment attached to it, but it’s also the care, right? Like, it’s that kind of thing, like creating an environment of care that I’ve certainly started to take into a lot of different spaces in my work, even the work that Davine, well, we’ll get into it, but that work that we had planned for a future grant, like, really centered on, how do we build a space that’s like IRL.,

Davine  18:13

My experience, I was surprised at how much fun it is. I remember, like, every time we convene in person, it really feels like a retreat. And I always remember the first time we convened, we had like, this, this salon afterwards, and then we went out to eat afterwards, and we were, like, all drinking a lot and having a lot of fun. And I was like, wow, academics really like to party. I did not know that. And Shoba had to educate me that this is not actually typical for how academics hang out, but I have a lot of fun. I build really meaningful connections. We build traditions with each other, like we always go do karaoke whenever we link up, and we don’t get to see each other in person often, but it was a lot of fun, a lot of meaningful community, and a lot of shifts in my career trajectory and in how I think of myself as a leader.

J. Robin Moon 19:09

Wow ,I love these words we’re hearing. Thank you so much. I as a program staff, I remember reviewing your application and this so you applied under structural racism as the project. But your project really stood out to me, among few others, as an intersect, the one that deals with intersectionality, which cannot be easy, and we in the in our circle, if you all might know what that means, intersectionality, but I think that that is also still an underappreciated area of not just research, community work as well. So we’re very curious to know, tell us about the promising practice, or multiple practices that in your work of intersectionality that have emerged from your IRL project.

Davine  19:59

For me, I think about engaging with the community on the community’s terms. When I think about our project through the lens of intersectionality, structural racism in general has caused a lot of harm to communities, often through academia. And then when you add on the LGBTQ+ community, that’s another community that has been systematically either neglected or harmed by academia, and so we wanted to be very thoughtful about engaging with the community and not taking an extractive approach and not causing harm, and really respecting any apprehension that might come. So that meant that we engaged with the community in the way that we like to engage with ourselves as a queer community. I would go to ballroom events. We met the staff at Boston GLASS as a research team for the first time at one of our annual family dinner events that Boston GLASS always hosts around the holidays to make youth feel at home. And then we started asking, what do people want us to study, and what do they want the outcomes to be? So we asked staff members and some peer leaders who are young people who are also staff members, what should we research? What problems do you want this research to solve? What outcomes do you want to see? How should we ask you these questions, like, what do you want to do? Interviews? Do you want to use your creativity? What would be really helpful? So when I think of a promising practice from this, I think about like, really putting the community first, being accountable to the community in terms of what they want to see, and that has really shaped every aspect of our project, and that is part of how we know our project is actually going to be helpful to the community, because it’s what they ask for.

J. Robin Moon 21:50

Thank you. Shoba, do you have anything to add to that?

Shoba  21:57

Yeah, I think you know when Davine, when you were talking, it made me think of one of the most important in my mind, promising practices from this work has been you having a role as an equal co researcher, but also being a staff member at GLASS when we started, and being a member of the community that you know of which youth are served. And I think, you know, I’ve been doing community engaged research for 18 years. And I have to say, one of my biggest worries is always, are we overstepping? Are we doing something inadvertently that will cause harm, something like that? And I just feel like there’s a built in protection if you have somebody who just knows that world and is of the world, and I think especially for us, since you’re that trusted practice person, it just allowed us to be more confident in what we were doing, because we had not that you can speak for everybody, but you can at least like start to vet and then also people would feel open to say, “Hey, Davine, we’re not good with this”. And I think that, to me, really was different, because in most projects that I’ve been part of, you know, the academic team has more resources. They typically have more decision making power all these different things, whereas this was set up as we are all equal partners in this. And if it’s a no go for anybody, it’s a no go. And maybe that’s also one of the promising practices I know you and I had talked about Davine, is this idea is taking time to just be like, who are you? How do you work? How do you communicate? And not that it went smoothly all the time by any means. But again, at least, like, sort of taking that time and also just starting the conversation. So when, if we did need to have a difficult conversation, we’d already started that path, and so it was easier to come to it. So I think, yeah, those are the things that really stuck out to me. Is just the structure of the program. Because we always say we want to, like, put practice first in community. This is a way to operationalize it. Just set it up so everybody gets the same number of dollars, same number, same amount of decision making power all of it. That feels like a really clean way to do it. And also, if somebody doesn’t want to be part of that, that’s okay too, but it’s going to lead to a very different kind of project. And so I think this was the structure of it worked very well for us.

Mandy LeBreche  24:24

I love that. I love hearing all of that. It’s like, you know, all this stuff was pretty set up intentionally, but it’s not always that we hear about how it comes into play within the team. So I love hearing all of this.

J. Robin Moon 24:40

I hear the integrity in, you know, the organization’s work. You’re walking the talk and honoring that. It’s gonna move only at the Speed of Trust, right? Just really, actually doing it is, like, the hardest part, and it’s not easy to find.

Shoba  24:57

Yeah, that’s, I think, one of the hardest things is this idea of going slow, and I think it comes up at every one of our IRL meetings, is that, that reminder of just go slower. So I’ve been trying to think of it as like, do less, be more and not be more, in the sense of be shinier and more effective and more efficient, but just like be with the people, with your partners, whoever. And I think that’s that’s a really hard thing to do in a lot of the environments, professional and community that we work at, or academic and community that we work in, but that that feels like something that’s so hard to learn, and I’m relearning, attempting to be better about it every day, but it’s a tough one.

Mandy LeBreche  25:41

Yeah, I think that’s a promising practice in and of itself. Yeah, wow. This is great. Alright, the next question pivots a little towards looking towards the future. So for both of you, what do you think are some of your next steps, and how do you see the lessons you’ve learned being applied in the work towards health equity for all as you move forward?

Davine  26:06

In terms of next steps, we literally just yesterday, submitted a different grant application. We want to further the work that we did with our IRL project, so doing other case studies with other orgs across the country, and getting a sense of how do we operationalize and measure working in this person centered, relational way that supports communities and is led by communities. So yeah, that’s one of the ways that the IRL has changed me, and that I used to introduce myself as a therapist. Now I say like I’m a therapist and a researcher. I want to like I want to keep doing this.

I really appreciate that as a function of the design of IRL and as a function of the culture of Boston GLASS, we we we have remained committed to serving LGBTQ+ youth of color by serving the LGBTQ+ staff of color that are working at these orgs. And so that has meant that our project shifted a lot. That means that this scrappiness and resilience that the community has because we’ve had to has shifted the way that our project looks. So our project has changed shape a bunch. The challenges that Boston GLASS is facing has changed a bunch, particularly in the current political climate. GLASS is being defunded, and so we we have this strategy of like staying putting the needs of the community first, no matter what the funders want, no matter what like the traditional academic institutions want, we’re here to serve the community first and foremost. And so this, like scrappiness and willingness to pivot, I think, is going to be baked into all of our future work together.

Shoba  28:01

Yeah, I think as part of our next steps, you know, as Davine said, we just put in this application yesterday. Fingers crossed.  But you know, we actually already had a funded grant together that was part of a larger center at Harvard that got terminated by the federal government. And so, you know, I think revising bits and pieces of that as well, because what we wanted to do is create an opportunity for a larger group to be part of this tent of community engaged, social justice focused researchers. So I think that’s also going to be part of it is sort of like bringing other, making it available and accessible to others who also want to be working in this way to whatever extent feels appropriate and available to them. But the idea that making that through line a little easier for them to see how their work can and should advance social justice, I think, feels like a really important part of what we can do together. Yeah. So I think the IRL experience has kind of put us on a really nice path to thinking about broadening the tent, but then also serving Boston GLASS. You know, part of our current project is thinking about, you know, where are there opportunities for GLASS to generate revenue as a function of some of the work that we’re doing? I don’t think that I would have thought of that on day one as part of what we were doing. It was more like, we’ll hand this off and people can do it but this is now just part of the project is we’re going to set things up in a way that prime the organization to be able to get those kinds of funds and sustain the wonderful work that they’re doing. So I think maybe it just feels like a little more pragmatic, right, like it’s, it’s always been the intent. I’m an implementation scientist, so my whole thing is supposed to be about helping research get into the world, but it’s still in an academic setting, so it still gets kind of, you know, wonky, and this is really about as Davine said, like centering the folks who the organization is serving. I think that’s that’s been a really nice shift, and I’m really glad that we got Davine hooked on research.

Davine 29:59

I didn’t see it coming.

J. Robin Moon 30:02

I think that’s another promising practice. And I do want to also comment for those listeners or watchers who are looking at our podcast, the the YouTube podcast, you can see this. You both look very bright and airy and happy when you talk about this work and about each other. I can see it visually, and I appreciate that.

Moving on to the next question, one of the core beliefs of this podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler when she says, “All that you touch you change, all that you change changes you”. Will each of you, please tell us briefly how IRL, our beloved community, has changed you, and how do you think you’ve changed the program and your community in return?

Shoba  30:52

So for me, IRL sort of has given me a wider set of options in terms of thinking about how I can create change, especially the idea of like small, local, accumulating change. I think that feels really doable, and especially at this moment, it feels sanity preserving, to feel like you can do these other things. I think from day one, we’ve been talking about what it means to build outside systems that don’t serve us. And I think IRL has made it a little bit more concrete about what that actually means. Like, it sounds great, but like, what do you do? And I think now, like in these groups, like, we’re really thinking about, like, these kinds of structures. And then for me, I think the last thing is, like, sort of this idea of being able to directly connect my values with my professional actions and knowing how to make them match more effectively. I think it’s a lifelong project, but that’s been really nice. And then Davine and I had the both had the reaction of, well, I don’t know how I changed. Anything like that feels really weird to talk about. So we decided that I would tell how Davine has changed IRL, and then she’ll do the same. So for me, and I think you actually saw it on the call earlier, one of the biggest impacts I think Davine has had on IRL are her thoughtful questions and the language that she uses to help people think about alternatives without feeling defensive. And I’m sure part of it is your social worker training, but part of it is just you. And so one of my favorite examples is when Davine started asking, you know, in our weekly calls, in the Zoom chat would often be saying, okay, literacy moment, what does this word mean? And earlier today, Mandy, when you were talking about phy ed, I didn’t know what that was either. I’ve heard physical education, phys ed, all kinds of other things, but never phy ed. Anyway, I could see Davine about to ask for a literacy moment, and then you said something that made it clear what it was. But I think again, just like that, normalizing the fact that, like, we accidentally use a lot of jargon, or we make assumptions about what folks do and don’t know, and there’s no shame in being like, “don’t know what you’re talking about”. I mean, Davine uses therapy words all the time. I don’t know what she’s talking about, so I can just ask her. But I think that just bringing that routinely in also made it feel like the space was not for academics or community partners or it’s just for all of us. So I think that’s a really nice contribution.

J. Robin Moon 33:16

You know, Mandy did that just to, just for you to make that point of demonstration.

Shoba  33:19

Thank you Mandy! That’s so kind of you! You made up a word just for that.

Mandy LeBreche  33:24

I did. No, but I appreciate that gift in yo, Davine, of being able to just question something is because, like, we’re, we’ve all been in situations where you’re in a group and someone’s talking about something and you have no idea what they’re talking about, but you’re like everyone else seems to know. So I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna ask or not gonna say anything, but I mean, that doesn’t put you at an advantage, so if you don’t know what’s being talked about. So I appreciate that.

Davine  33:49

I think that the IRL has really changed how I think about myself. I have often, like, I remember often being told, like, be a leader, not a follower. And I was like, “but why like what I don’t want to” it provided this opportunity for me to see myself as a leader, not in like this dominating, brash kind of way, but like leading by example, like leading by having the courage to ask questions, leading by connecting my community to resources, leading by questioning things that need to be changed, or like inviting people into thinking of alternatives, so that it has empowered me to speak about myself as a leader in different contexts, and that’s been helpful for me in various areas of my life.

Shoba, I feel like you bring this, this element to every space that we’re in, especially in person, where whatever we’re talking about, you’re going to, like, make it personal, like people will be presenting to us on a panel, and they’ll ask this really thoughtful question that really connects us to the humanity of what’s being done. And also, like, I appreciate the way that you have invited the group at large into action. We were, we were at an IRL convening when we got word that the federal government was pulling financial support from Harvard, and we weren’t really talking about that exactly, but you were like, “Hey, this is what’s going on in my world. It’s relevant to the social justice work that we’re doing”. And it was so cool for me to watch all these academics switch from theorizing to practice, where people were like, ready to step in seeing somebody that they had a relationship with who was losing resources, ready to act, ready to like, come together and build something different, ready to think outside the box and think outside the current systems of, how are we going to keep moving this work forward? So I that’s something that’s the way that I think you’ve changed this community.

Mandy LeBreche  35:51

You two are so creative. I mean the intros, and then I loved how you just did that with that question.

Shoba  35:56

Creative… obstinate… whatever.

Mandy LeBreche  36:02

Creative. All right. Final question is, working towards equity and against systems of oppression can take its toll? Can you each please share with our listeners how you engage in self care as you do this difficult and important work.

Speaker 4  36:19

For me, it’s music and birds. I have a lot of tailored playlists. I’ve been listening to my playlist of songs that make me happy recently, I’m like, I might go to the apocalyptic bops playlist mix. And I have been like, looking out the window, looking at different birds. I enjoy the Merlin app that helps me identify what the birds are. And then if I hear, I know there’s a cardinal out here somewhere, because I’ve been hearing it, but I haven’t seen it yet. So my self care today is going to be looking for the Cardinal.

Shoba  36:48

My self care is really making time to just be with people in person. Like, whenever I get the chance, like, it’s just, I’ve realized how much it’s a defense, you know, like, or it shores up your defenses. So that’s been really, really necessary at this time. I think the other thing is crafts. So as part of getting ready for my aroma therapy, slash craft drop, I’ve just been doing all kinds of crafts. So like, every night I’m just doing or, like, for a week, I’ll just do the same craft, type of craft every night, you know, and then I’ll switch to something else. Like, right now, I’m doing gel prints, making a lot of cards, if anybody needs any. But, you know, it’s really like, you’re just thinking about that. I often do this stuff with my 10 year old, who’s also really good friends with Davine and, you know, so that’s, that’s also really nice, but, yeah, just totally different part of your brain, really fun, and I don’t necessarily need to keep everything. I can just recycle it. And so there’s no pressure.

Mandy LeBreche  37:50

I love it. I love that we asked that question, because I always need different ideas for myself. So I love hearing what other folks are doing. I love that. Well, that’s a wrap. Shoba and Davine, thank you so much for joining us. We loved hearing your stories and about the work that you do and your experience in the IRL program. We’re so lucky to know you both, and we appreciate you both sharing today.

Shoba  38:14

Thank you for making it so easy and comfortable.

J. Robin Moon 38:17

Thank you all, and thank you to our listeners. We’d love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity? Find us on the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders LinkedIn page, where you can share your thoughts and leave questions for the team. And don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so you’d never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world. Until next time, take care.

Mandy LeBreche  39:05

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the Interdisciplinary Research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. A special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you our listeners for being a part of this important conversation.

A Conversation with Team North Port St. Joe (Cohort 7)

Season 2, Episode 2 | August 28, 2025

• Hosted by:  Krystal Lee and J. Robin Moon
• Guests: Dannie E. Bolden, Dr. Kwame N. Owusu-Daaku, and Dr. Christian Wells

Mandy LeBreche  00:04

This is the Promising Practices for Health Equity podcast brought to you by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Krystal Lee  00:21

Hello and welcome back to Promising Practices for Health Equity, the podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, affectionately known as IRL. I’m your host. Krystal Lee and my co host today is J Robin Moon, Associate Director of Research Evaluation and Dissemination for IRL. Hey Robin!

J. Robin Moon 00:43

Hi Krystal!

Krystal Lee  00:45

As we mentioned in our prologue, this season of Promising Practices will feature the experiences, stories and lessons of our IRL fellows. Today, we have the immense pleasure of talking with our IRL Cohort 7 team from North Port St Joe, Florida. We are happy to welcome Danny Bolden, Christian Wells, Kwame Owusu Daaku to the podcast. Welcome friends!

J. Robin Moon 01:13

We’re so glad to have you with us today. Before we ask you to tell us about yourselves and your work, we invite you to engage with us in one of our IRL signature, promising practices, checking in with each other. One of our core beliefs is that nurturing personal relationships is key to building communities that collaborate effectively in the work towards health equity. So at the beginning of all our meetings at IRL, we do a quick check in to help us continuously build connections in our beloved community. So today, check in question: What is the most memorable summer produce that you’ve eaten in the last week? I will go first. I’ve just been eating… I’ve been doing, like, smoothies, protein powder, smoothies for breakfast. Huge, like, revolutionary change of eating carbs based food in the last two decades, and I’ve been buying strawberries and other berries, blueberries… All the berries are in season at farmers markets. I’ve been buying them more than I ever have in my adult life, memory. So that’s what I will say. I’m going to toss it to Krystal

Krystal Lee  02:19

As you know, Robin, my garden has been struggling this year, so I haven’t reaped anything that I have been able to eat from my own garden. But we have been buying the summer berries, and my husband has been making me berry lemonade. So like raspberry lemonade, strawberry lemonade with actual like, limes and strawberries that  blend ourselves, and it is phenomenal. Those supermarket lemonades could never! It is the best thing. It’s the best thing that I’ve had all summer.

J. Robin Moon 02:54

Miss Mocktail!

Krystal Lee  02:59

Yep! Ms. Mocktail! I will toss it to Kwame..

Kwame Owusu Daaku  03:02

Feel you on the homemade lemonade. So for me, I had a very delicious, perfect size set of apples in New Zealand. It was like, you know, sometimes you get an apple and it’s just too much apple, you know, for one serving. But this was the perfect size, and it was very delicious. And it wasn’t even necessarily tagged as organic, you know? And so, yeah, I think I would move to New Zealand for the fruits and vegetables alone. So I’ll toss it to Danny.

Dannie Bolden  03:37

Uh, yes, I have been enjoying cucumbers, enjoying tomatoes. And of course, you’ve seen the zucchini and the squash. Oh man, let me tell you. We listen. We have a nice sized garden in the back, and I grow a lot of peppers and stuff. And so, you know, just recently, with the zucchini and the squash. My wife has been creating these phenomenally delicious dishes with with the squash and stuff. And, of course, she takes the cucumbers and she makes a dip out of them that we then dip the zucchini in when it’s, you know, sort of fried in olive oil. So now, we’re really into growing our own vegetables and fruits and things, and we grow… we got potatoes that are going to be coming up here. I’m going to be harvesting soon, and then during the winter months, we do cabbage and kale and all that. So we eat fresh vegetables all the time. So I’m just excited about the harvest that we’re getting this year. And of course, I try to share with my neighbors, because I used to grow more than I can consume myself.

J. Robin Moon 04:41

amazing.

Christian Wells  04:44

Well, they have federal they have Federal Express, so you can share with us too.

Dannie Bolden  04:50

Alright, yeah, well, I’m going to toss it to you Christian, and you know that I always bring you peppers. So you know when I see you in August, you will get your abundant package.

J. Robin Moon 04:59

You know, Christian is a chef in the house.

Christian Wells  05:04

I did. I did. I spent one of my sabbaticals going to cooking classes, and I learned how to cook and how to hold a knife. And so I, I think that’s real important for anybody. And I still, I, anytime I see Danny, he brings me some vegetables, and they’re probably still some in the freezer. Well, in Florida, it is not berry season, so we don’t have our delicious strawberries and blueberries. They come from California and Canada nowadays, but pretty much year round in Florida, depending on which neighbor is growing it, you can always get some delicious tomatoes, or as my mom calls them, maters. So you can always get your maters somewhere. And this week, I’ve certainly had some delicious tomatoes from somebody’s backyard. All you need is a little bit of salt and pepper on it, you know, slice it, leave it out on the cutting board, put a little salt and pepper on it, and then walk away for half an hour, come back and they’re ready to go. Delicious

J. Robin Moon 06:02

Dream. Yeah, know what I mean. I love this team.

Krystal Lee  06:09

We discovered my family and I discovered tomato sandwiches a couple of years ago. Yes, and in the summertime, there’s a farm stand down the street and we grab our tomatoes and do exactly what you were just saying, Christian, and it is phenomenal.

Well, thank you all for joining us again today. I want to give you an opportunity to tell our listeners about yourselves. So how about we start with Mr Danny, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dannie Bolden  06:41

Sure, listen, I’m Danny Bolden, and grew up in Port Saint Joe, Florida, and I am a community change agent. Okay, that is what I truly aspire to be. And the work that I’ve done in the community has been really focused around the fact that as a community change agent, you have to be prepared not only to identify what the issues are in your community that need change, but also be willing to speak truth to power, especially when there’s change that needs to take place. And so the work is challenging because sometimes you have to rub against the grain. In other words, a lot of times power doesn’t want to hear that there’s something wrong. They want to people just to go along. So in terms of the work that I and who I am, I’m the person that I will go out and seek out the opportunity to make the change and be willing to speak to power and to be able to stand forward on truth, to my truth that I believe, and I believe that the inequities that the community, that of North Port St Joe has experienced all of my life has been something that needed to be addressed. And so after coming back to my hometown, I said, Look, I’m in a situation now, financially and in my career, where I can actually speak truth to power and try to invoke the change. So that’s who I am. I stand on that I’m prepared to do whatever I have to do to improve the conditions in my community, and we’ll talk more about what those issues are, but that’s who I am, and that’s what I stand on as a human being. I am prepared to deal with the situation as it comes forward, but I’m not going to back down. I know that I need to do this work. This is a part of who I am.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  08:26

So my name is Kwame Owusu Daaku, and I really care about justice. I think it took me a while to realize that, but that’s probably the driving force of everything I do, everything I aspire to, even one of my favorite Bible verses talks about seeking justice, love and mercy and walking humbly with your God. And so, yeah, it’s, I think, even learning the difference between equity and equality, you know, probably as a first year college student, and then even later, recognizing that there are some situations where equality, you know, is necessary, not just equity, and other situations where we can’t be treating everyone the same, and we need to give redress to people who have been harmed historically and, you know, are being harmed currently. And I think that is all mediated by the concept of justice, like doing what is right, you know, and giving people what they deserve. And so that’s what, like really permeates everything I do, or my thinking that, you know, justice be served. And I think even before my present occupation, I always wanted to be a lawyer, and it wasn’t something, it’s something I couldn’t shake, you know, for the longest time, and someway, somehow, and I wanted to be a criminal justice lawyer, and then, you know, now I’m a professor, but I find that that desire for justice, you know, always, like, has been present with me, yeah, so that’s, like, sort of my driving force.

Christian Wells  09:56

Well, I’m Christian Wells, I’m a professor of Anthropology at the University of South Florida in Tampa. And I guess when people ask, you know who are you? I can I can tell them. You remember that song Loretta Lynn, a coal miner’s daughter. I am the son of a coal miner’s daughter. My mom grew up in the hollers in West Virginia, and my grandfather was worked in the coal mines. And eventually, you know, we we got out of that situation. But just growing up in that context and and hearing the stories from my mom, you know, always keeps me grounded about who I am and who my family is, and how I was raised. And we grew up with a lot of environmental injustices. And in fact, in that that song by Loretta Lynn, there’s a lyric toward the end of the song where she says, I remember well, the well where I drew water. And it just is a very powerful line that says, you know, wherever I am today, I’m humbled by my beginnings and where I am, and I always stay connected to that. So I feel, you know, wherever I go, I try to remember the well where I drew water from, and I bring that with me into a lot of the work that I do. And just like Danny and Kwame, you know, a lot of their work is about justice and about environmental justice. So that’s the work that I’ve been doing with with my colleagues for, you know, quite a number of years.

J. Robin Moon 11:22

Thank you so much. So let’s just dive into this. Please tell us the story of how you came to your health equity work and what health equity looks like to you. I know you already kind of went into it straight already. Let’s start with Christian and go the other order.

Christian Wells  11:37

Alright, our group started. You really have to ask Kwame. He is our leader. He pulled us together and told us about health equity and told us about these experiences that we could have with the IRL program. But for me, I think I’ve always been doing health equity work, and I never knew it. I always thought that my umbrella that I did everything under was environmental justice. But as more and more I learned about health equity, I realized that environmental justice is underneath a broader umbrella of health equity. And so I think I’ve just been, you know, invested in it for such a long time, and not really realizing it. But for me, health equity is about freedom to make decisions, freedom to have agency when it comes to your health and well being. And I know we live, as an Anthropologist, I know we live in in a world not of our own, partly of our own making, and not of our own making in many times. And a lot of our decisions are constrained in many ways. And often we feel like we have decision making authority or we have capacity to make decisions when, in fact, our decisions are very constrained and sometimes even made for us. And so I think health equity is really about a process. It’s not a thing that you arrive at, but it’s a process understanding those kinds of structures and and coming up with ways to enable you and build capacity in you and the communities around you for your ability to participate meaningfully in making decisions about your health and well being

J. Robin Moon 13:07

Beautiful. Kwame…

Kwame Owusu Daaku  13:11

How do I come to health equity work? So in my varied interests, I almost got a PhD in public health, almost like it was just. It was a matter of, who gave me more money I will confess. And so I realized, again, like talking about that draw of justice being the thread, even when it came to health, public health, and I was very interested in community work and community change and social change in really related to the health space. And my Masters is in urban planning, and urban planning and public health, you know, basically come from the same source, you know. And so I think health equity was always in the back of my mind, even though I didn’t realize that’s what it was. And I was always drawn to issues of equity. So it really didn’t matter whether it was health or environment or society, whatever it was, as long as trying to see justice served. And so this almost felt natural when I learned about the IRL program and what it stood for and its goal. And yeah, I think for me, it’s always been about equity. So just tag anything else, and I’m there.

J. Robin Moon 14:23

I know that this program was made for you [unini]. Danny,

Dannie Bolden  14:29

well, I came to this as Christian did, through Dr. Kwame, in terms of this IRL work, but the work that I’ve been doing over the last 30 years has been centered around housing, economic development, and a lot of the work that I was doing, I realized that education and all of that stuff sort of tied in to what builds a community. And what really drove me towards really getting involved with the health equity work is. My mom, who died from cancer, who lived on a paper mill landfill site that had basically had all types of chemicals that was buried there that had gotten into the groundwater. For years, she had been ingesting the toxic fumes that came from the paper mill in a chemical plant, and she died at an early age. My mom was 62 years old, but she was a very, very outgoing and healthy person. But all of a sudden, one day, we found out she had cancer. And so doing the work that I was doing as it related to housing and all the other stuff, I realized that, hey, there’s got to be something going on here in the soil, there’s got to be something that’s going on in this water, in the air, that’s impacting the people in our community. So I begin to start looking at, how does all these things connect together, the landfill, housing, sinking contaminated water and all that. And I realized that there, for all of the years that the paper mill had doing all of this waste and dump in the air and in the water. There had never been any health monitoring done in the community. So once the paper mill left, they left all of these basically byproducts in the soil, in the water and everything. And people were still living on this land. And so I realized that the only way that we were going to be able to address this is to find ways to address not only the environmental issues that were happening in the soil and in the water, but what, how did that interface with the illnesses that we had, the high levels of cancer, diabetes and other related illnesses. And so, you know, the health care system in Port Saint Joe was always sort of minimal when it came down to the black community and access to the care. They really didn’t have an active hospital that was there. But the fact is that people were dying, and no one had ever taken the time to do the research to see if that was a relationship there. So when this opportunity came to really try to drill down on what the causes was and what some of the effects it was having on the community I saw this is a great opportunity to work with two gentlemen that I have highest regards for, who are very, very good at this work, and I’ve learned a great deal from them, but my community itself is still in a state of despair. And so this work requires that you know that I continue to do what I do in terms of trying to raise the level of awareness, that we get some health monitoring done in the community, that we do the things that can address these system issues. And I can tell you right now, North Port St Joe is still in the same state it was when I came home 25 years ago, and that there has been a lack of investment in the community itself. There’s the housings after Hurricane Michael, were basically left in disarray, but they were before that, they were in disarray and decay, and we have high levels of mold in a lot of these homes, and about 14% of them now are uninhabitable. And so there has to be a relationship, a causal relationship, between the health issues and the soil. And so this work has given me an opportunity to see and bring a group of people together in the community to find out that we’re not in this alone. There are other people that are thinking the same thing. We just gotta figure out how we can work together. So this work has given me the opportunity to build some collaborative partners and some coalitions with some organizations of people that I think that will be able to help us to address these systemic issues there. And what does health equity mean to me? It means dignity. It means choice. It means a healthy and safe environment in which you live, as well as having access to adequate health care so you don’t die from something like my mom died from without anybody giving her any kind of indication that this was an environment that you could actually die from cancer, by just living in this community,

Krystal Lee  18:57

Thanks so much for sharing that. Mr. Danny, we’ll talk a little bit more about the community and as it relates to your team project in a little bit. But I wanted to ask Kwame, could you tell us a little bit about your experience with the IRL program?

Kwame Owusu Daaku  19:15

So there’s an interesting pattern in my life when it comes to applying for things. I always, well, not always, let me not change it, but I I often get whatever I apply for the second time round, never the first. You know, almost any grant or fellowship that I’ve applied for, it’s always second time around. So the first time, it was another colleague at the University of West Florida who brought the IRL program to my attention. So this for cohort six. And so they had, since they brought up the idea, sort of they kind of determined the focus. And I believe I did try to work with Danny at that point, I’m not sure, or someone else from 14, Joe and I, we applied, but it didn’t quite, you know, work out, you know. So the year after the application cycle was when Danny, Chris and I started working together more with Port Saint Joe, or in Port Saint Joe. And that’s when, sort of, so when the second … 7th cohort application came around, I was like, Guys, this is perfect. Like, I think we are, you know, we are ripe for this. We’re already doing the work, and it still has to do with structural racism in health. And so I think my experience with IO has been nothing short of, I would say, life changing or phenomenal. Like, it’s the first time I’ve been part of a fellowship program, having been part of so many but where, I think, even coming to the first, you know, meeting, I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, these people believe us, especially when it comes to, like, even what we spent and what we didn’t spend, like, it was like, oh, there’s no, they’re not like, nitpicking. I don’t know like, so I don’t know if this is, if I should be saying this on on the on this podcast, but when you deal with university, like budgeting offices, like they nitpick everything to the last cent, you know? And so in my mind, I was kind of expecting that kind of treatment, but I was like, No, back to Danny’s earlier point of dignity. You know, I really felt that this was a fellowship that saw us as people and believed us and treated us with dignity. So it’s been really encouraging and inspiring to see even the breadth and scope of health equity work, you know, across the nation, and to meet with like minded people when we have our annual meetings and annual gatherings, and yeah, for me, it’s just been been a really encouraging and positive experience to be part of this program.

Christian Wells  21:46

Well, I’m glad, I’m glad you didn’t wait till cohort eight, Kwame.

Dannie Bolden  21:56

same here. Chris, yeah.

J. Robin Moon 22:01

Mr. Danny, I have another question for you. Tell us about the your team. I know you already got into a little bit, but tell us about your team project and tell us the name of the… for our audience. Tell us the name of your project and how the community where your research is based in and you are the community partner of the community.

Dannie Bolden  22:21

Yeah, I’m going to make sure I get the right proper name of it so I don’t miss speak that on here just a second. Okay? It is “Transformative scenario planning to envision health equity in the future”. And this is for the community of North Port St Joe, Florida. And we really tried to drill down on what were some of the the opportunities, you know, to really build some transformative planning scenarios around trying to address what we had come to the earlier research that had been done through our health department, as well as some of the other assessments that have been done through the University of Florida, West Florida, as well as the University of South Florida. And so we begin. We really wanted to focus on the community. Let’s bring the community folks together so that we can get a clear understanding of what the issues were. And as it relates to our community, we knew, you know, that there was definitely some systemic racial issues in Housing and Economic Development, and so the health piece was really an opportunity for us to bring together, you know, the community residents, as well as bringing in, we had some folks from the health department and other folks to actually come in and see if there was a way that We could actually look at how to create a future in healthcare delivery that would allow us to actually change the trajectory that the community was on. And so, you know, I’m I can tell you the the research and the work that was done was beautiful, but what was so enlightening for me was the community engagement piece of it, because the community actually helped us to identify what some of the disparities were as well as what some of the barriers were, and actually help us to come up with some strategies that was able to help us to address those issues in a way that I think, going forward, we have some successful opportunities before us, and I’ll let one of the professors sort of go dive deeper into it.

J. Robin Moon 24:23

I’m gonna go to Christian with that question. So transformative scenario planning is not something we see often in, you know, public health intervention programs. And this is really innovative in that you think about the future and reimagine the future, instead of just thinking about getting rid of something that is not working. And that is asset based, and that is truly community engaging and collaborative. So this is a very, very interesting project for us to even review your application. So Christian, going from Mr. Ian, tell us about the promising practice, or practices, can be more than one, practices that have emerged from your IRL project thus far.

Christian Wells  25:10

Yes. So our promising practice is just what you mentioned, transformative scenario planning, and this is a holistic planning approach that brings together a diverse group of people, some of whom hopefully are influential in terms of decision making, but really unique, there’s some this is a group of people that are sometimes includes folks that are maybe too polarized in their positions to work together, to commit sort of collective action, to imagine and work toward a better future. And that’s what’s you know unique about it is this bringing people together with opposing viewpoints. And the the idea is to promote, assist, promote a structural transformation, or system transformation, by centering individuals and their shared experiences through something that, in the literature we call situated learning, and that’s an approach to learning that emphasizes the participatory nature of knowledge production through, for example, mentoring and apprenticing. This is something that you see, certainly in my field of anthropology, but in many other fields that we call a community of practice, and that’s a group of people who learn collaboratively by interacting and developing shared understandings, and you need look no further than the IRL program for this. The IRL program, our cohorts are transformative scenario planning groups. We are a community of practice. We are a group of influential and diverse actors. Some of us are really polarized in our decisions. We don’t all agree about everything, but we come together and we work collaboratively as a community of practice to try to envision what the possibility for Health Equity could be, and then what kinds of strategies we can take individually, in our own lives and in our professional lives to move that, that needle. So I think that our our promising practice, the TSP, the transformative scenario planning practice, is very much like the IRL program. It is a community of practice.

J. Robin Moon 27:15

That’s a huge compliment, that you are a light, you know, making a comparison of your your amazing program to us. Thank you.

Christian Wells  27:22

It makes our work easy, because we just go to the IRL program meetings and take all of the good ideas and steal them and come back to our community and work with our community. And it’s great. It’s super easy.

Dannie Bolden  27:36

It’s a team sport too. That’s what it is, you guys. It’s a team sport. We’re not alone. Absolutely.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  27:44

Just wanted to chime in with one other like outcome of this work is that. So I think in our situation, the plan didn’t necessarily work out, you know, as envisioned, because, as you know, Danny, Danny and Christian pointed out, the problems are structural, and we needed local governance to sort of be on board with the change. And so that’s why we even selected the transformative scenario approach, because it gets people who are often polarized, you know, hopefully, as they envision the future together, they are willing to transform it by seeing each other differently, you know, not just seeing each other in their professional roles, but also as like human beings, you know, again, talking about to Danny’s point, that’s what the IRL program did for us, you know, really centered us as individuals and acknowledge us as people and give us dignity. And so hopefully they would have that experience. But then the city government, whom we really needed to be present, you know, was not present, you know. But a promising practice that really emerged, and to Danny’s point was it really built the capacity of the people who did attend to want to take local action. You know, Danny can report that there are many people who, before those workshops that we had, maybe were not as engaged or not as willing to take initiative or take the lead on projects, who are now, like very much taking the lead on things, and are attending more community events and things like that. And so even though, yes, we didn’t get the city government on board and no promising, you know, a bucket list of items, the people who did show up for these workshops, you know, were very much, yeah, inspired and encouraged, you know, to take matters into their own hands. And so I think even if the plan doesn’t work out, how you you envision, you know, the people who do show up, you know, do get a lot out of the experience.

Christian Wells  29:33

Yeah, I’ll just add that, even though we didn’t get the city really involved, even though we didn’t really get the city involved, we created the conditions conducive to change. We created… We took the baton while we had it and ran as fast as we could. And we’re we’re still going to run, but we’re also handing off the baton to the next generation that can take it forward. So it was a really important period, I think, in the evolution of what’s going on in North Port St Joe

J. Robin Moon 30:00

I love that, and you have just begun. You’re not done yet.

Krystal Lee  30:07

I want to invite you all to follow along the trajectory that Christian was just talking about, where he said, like, giving the baton to the next generation. So how I want you all to, like, cast your eyes towards the future, right? We’ve talked about in our last one of our last October meetings, we talked about like envisioning possibilities and and dreaming towards the future. And so I wonder if you could share with us, like, what do you think are the next steps for the work that you are doing in North Port, St Joe, and how do you see the lessons that you’ve learned being applied to the work for health equity? Maybe we can start with Mr. Danny, and then the others can jump in as they see fit.

Dannie Bolden  30:53

Well, I have to say, the work that we’ve done so far, I think, as Christian and Kwame both said, you know, I think we’ve laid a great foundation in terms of the community realizing that together there, there’s power there. They can actually be able to move this, this transformative work that we’ve done to the next level. And the IRL giving us this opportunity to pull this together. And one of the things that was so beautiful about it was bringing these people together. We did three retreats, and from those retreats, those folks bonded together in a way that I think that as we look at what’s next, and we’re going to be talking about what’s next, I talked to Kwame and and Christian about, you know, how do we build on the work that has been done, rather than just as most things in the community, people say, Okay, we had a meeting. We did this. We can’t…  What are we going to do after this is over? Put it on the shelf, or we’re going to go back and say, what’s the next steps to move us forward? So I envision this work not just ending when the IRL piece ends. I envision this work moving to another level. We’re going to be meeting here in August to really talk about how we can actually move that ball to the next level. So Krystal, I hope I answered your question, but that, to me, is such a paramount piece of this work. I’ve done so much research and so many different projects that I’ve been on over the years where there was a paper written, a white paper, there was a grant written, it was put on the shelf, and that was the end of it. But this work is so important that it has to be moved to the next level. And so I’m hoping that upon the work that’s being done, we’ve got a group of folks in the community who says, Look, they’re craving this. We had most of the people who started out with us in the first workshop, came to the second workshop, came to the third workshop. We lost a few, but the true, the true essence of the work, was one, and the way it was presented was in such an informative way that people want to see this move, because it is a big concern to the community, and so we gotta now broaden our net. We’ve gotta, if we can’t reach the all of the elected officials in the city or the county, we gotta cherry pick. Maybe we get one here, one there, but we’ve gotta continue this work and take it to the next level.

Christian Wells  33:18

I think we learned two really important things by doing this project. The first is that, you know, even though we were doing this kind of transformative scenario planning, what we were really doing was building capacity for engagement. And at the end of the day, even though we have these scenarios, you know, planned, it’s really about getting people involved in the community. And I think that’s one of the successes of the project. The other thing that we learned, that I learned, I don’t know about my colleagues, but you know, we went into this thinking about all the problems that are in North Port St Joe that Danny beautifully articulated, all the health problems, all the environmental problems, and when we approached the TSP planning process and the retreats as a bunch of problems, people were, you know, tired, tired of hearing about the problems, tired of being involved in the problems. But what the IRL taught us was to flip the script and talk about the future. What do people envision for the future? What are their dreams? And so when we approached the planning process in terms of dreaming about the good things of the future, everybody suddenly, you know, light clicked on, and people wanted to be involved and engaged in that. They didn’t want to be engaged in problems and problem solving. They wanted to be involved in the dream work, the dream work that makes the team work. And so we’ve totally for me, anyway, I’ve totally redesigned the way I approach problems now and and approach them in terms of people’s future and the dreams they have for the future and their children, instead of just constantly saying, This is bad, this is bad. This is bad. Nobody likes that kind of stigma, but people like to be involved in that kind of dream work. So that was one, one big outcome that I had not anticipated at all for this project that I’m very happy with.

J. Robin Moon 35:08

That’s beautiful. Well, in that spirit. Danny, everybody here, you will now say, if elect elected official, you’ll say when, when they will come. You will manifest this. Okay, yeah, going with that Christian you? You set me up for the next question in the flow, one of the core beliefs of this podcast team is summed up in the words of Octavia Butler when she says, All that you touch you change, all that you change changes you. So now let’s talk a little bit about your personal aspect. Will, each of you share with you, with us, how IRL, our beloved community, has changed you. And how do you think that you’ve changed the program, really briefly. Who wants to start maybe Kwame…

Kwame Owusu Daaku  35:57

or the second part is harder… how I’ve changed the program? For sure, I don’t know about that, but I will say IRL has changed me. I think it’s helped me lean into parts of myself that I before the program, you know, kept separate, you know, especially when we did the storytelling workshop, you know, asking us to tell stories and me sharing poetry that I had written like a very long time ago. I was like, Yeah, I don’t have to sort of hide this part of myself or keep this part of myself, like, separate, you know, from the work that I do, and I can incorporate it, you know, into what I do. And there’s even stuff that I would do in class that I would never bring up, like, with my colleagues who had a meeting or stuff like that, you know. So, but it’s just, it’s just helped me think more holistically about who I am and try to bring all of myself to bear in any given context, you know. And so I really appreciate that about, you know, the program, and I think even from, like, a co leadership standpoint, you know, it’s helped me. Also, I just realized just to let some things go, you know, and then also, yeah, just allow the process to unfold, you know, the way it does, which is sort of even the spirit of the transformative scenario process, to just let it be emergent and not hold on so strongly to what the plan was, but then to allow the practice to sort of determine the final product. Yeah, so…

Dannie Bolden  37:30

I’ll quickly add. Christian, Kwame, you were absolutely spot on. You know, the thing is, for me, it was stepping into an orbit somewhat where I was, I was real hopeful. The expectations were somewhat okay. Maybe, you know. But what I got out of this was it lit a fire under me, simply because I realized that we wasn’t alone, this orbit that we were in with IRL was a lot of folks who had a lot of different strong beliefs in things that they wanted to see change. And the fact that it was such a diverse group of folks, it really lit a fire under me, and, you know, and I, you know, stepping into a policy environment, which, you know, it’s not something that structurally, that I was always used to, but the way that the policy and the way the structure was set up, I learned a great deal from it. Okay, and so, leaving this, this, this project, I’m gonna I’ve got so many tools now, different tools that have been introduced into my process, into my thinking, things that you know, that you know, that I’ve never had the opportunity to to learn or to be exposed to, and so this is, this is really for me, it’s been an experience that would allow me to be able to take some of these tools that I’ve learned and to do my community building work, to do my advocacy work in my community change work, while at the same time Taking some of these tools that I’ve learned, I’m sharing them with people in my world, in my spirit, and saying, Hey, this is a new learning experience for me. Let me share this information with you. And one of the things I’ve done, I’ve got this little notebook full of all the little things that we’ve got that I you know, my, my, my, we need to be building future leaders, community change agents, the people who are engaged in, you know, trying to change and create equity in whatever arena is this. And so to me, this has been that opportunity for me to build my knowledge base. But I want to share that we need to build more advocates for change, more people who would engage in this work. So that’s been one of the joys of of this whole journey. And of course, I have to give us a shameless plug for my two partners, cohorts with me. They have instilled, listen, they have put a lot into the work, but I’ve learned so much from these two gentlemen here. And so it is just so fantastic to. Be able to work with two gentlemen who have just been, you know, we might have differences, but we didn’t differ in a way that it was adversary. It was always everybody agreed. And I’ll be honest with you, I can’t think of one thing that we had. It couldn’t mediate, that didn’t get solved in a very easy because these guys are just, you know, they’re just wonderful gentlemen to work with. So IRL introduced me to them in a different light, because I knew both of them before that.

Christian Wells  40:32

Well, thank you for calling us gentlemen. Danny, I never heard that. Oh, there’s a couple of things for me that IRL did, one was the realization that I could advocate for communities and people that I did not know. You know, for years I spent working directly with very specific communities, and I felt comfortable advocating for them in different capacities, but never wanted to reach sort of beyond that. And IRL really shows you that you don’t have to know somebody individually to advocate on their behalf. That was really very powerful for me, and that’s going to evolve and transform as I move forward. And the other thing is that IRL did was really teach me about advocacy and activism, and I had approached working with communities, as sort of speaking on behalf of Communities, and understanding and telling this, you know, hearing them and then telling their stories and and I learned that that approach can often recreate the kind of structural racism and colonial kind of structures that we’re all embedded in. And maybe sometimes a better approach is to simply help people tell their own story, help people have a greater voice, so that that their voice is still center, and you’re just helping to make it louder, you know. So I learned a lot about, I think, advocacy through through that way, through IRL,

J. Robin Moon 41:58

amplifying the existing voice, rather than speaking for them.

Krystal Lee  42:02

This has been, this has been perfect. We one of the things that has become clear to us as we’ve been doing this project is that, you know, the work to what Kwame mentioned, emergence, emergence. And you know we’ve, we’ve been talking about emergent strategies, and we’ve been, over the last year, looking at books like practical radicals and for pivots. And there’s so many lessons that have come for my for me individually, but also, I think, for others as well, about how do we practice and grow our capacity to embody the just and liberated worlds that we long for, that we are working towards. How are we working and what are we doing to embody health equity? And you know, in four pivots, Doctor Sean Jin Wright talks about self care and healing yourself. And you know, doing things that allow the allow our movements to be sustainable because we are taking care of ourselves and making sure that we have what we need. And so I wonder in our work towards health equity and against systems of oppression. As a final thought, can you all share with our listeners, how do you conceptualize and how do you engage in self care as you do this work. Let me start with Christian.

Christian Wells  43:25

For me, self care has changed, you know, throughout my career, and I’ve really come to understand it very differently, right in the place that I’m in now. For me, self care is family care, and I get my own self care by caring for my family. And that really grounds me. That really helps me remember the well I drew water from that really, you know, brings me back to why it is I’m here on Earth, and so I engage in family care practices, whether it’s staying home and taking care of people, or, more often than not, cooking, you know, that’s a big thing that I love to do for other people, and especially my family. So if I want to feel better about a day that’s gone terribly wrong and terrible problems, I’ll go home and I’ll cook a delicious meal. And if it’s a beautiful, fabulous, wonderful meal, you know, I’ve had a really horrible day, beautiful.

Dannie Bolden  44:24

Well, self care for me is, is just what I showed you earlier. I mean, I go out in my garden and I my plants, we talk, I play music to them, we entertain each other, especially when I go out there. And you know, when you look one day and there’s nothing there, and then you pull a leaf back, and there’s a big zucchini there, and you’re like, Where was this yesterday? Did this thing? It’s like magic. But the other thing is, I enjoy my family. We, you know, we do a lot of things together. We have a camper. We load up in the camper, and, you know, we go out and we camp, and we do stuff like that. One of the things that’s really. Refreshing, and has been really sort of like a burden lifted is this work, and just the fact that we built these collaborative and added more people to the work, I feel almost like, Thank You, Jesus. You know it’s because there’s more people in the battle. And so you know, self care for me is just going to meetings with the CDC, with the coalition, and seeing these people, all you know, inspired to do this work. And I think to myself, Well, I think I had a little something to do with it, and I feel good about that. I feel like I’ve done something that has been rewarding for me, but also given to others. So again, me and my garden, we cool every afternoon, when the sun goes down, we’re out there talking to each other, and that is the most solace that I have. And the best feeling for me is putting my hands in the dirt and moving that dirt around.

J. Robin Moon 45:54

That’s right, beautiful.

Kwame Owusu Daaku  45:57

I do want to agree with my colleagues on even this notion of self care in service to others. You know, it might sound sort of atypical to be like, Well, we said self care. Why are you talking about doing more stuff? But it’s not doing more stuff. It’s when you even in the moment of, I’ve had a really long day saying I’m going to, like, wash the dishes or do something, you know, again, serving those closest to you or those around you. I think there’s a lot of healing in that, you know, because we are sort of connected individuals. On on top of that, one thing that I do is I sleep a lot like, if I know that I don’t have to go anywhere and I can like, I will sleep. I was, I would just like, you know, so I always, like, love the opportunity to just sleep with no agenda. I know that I don’t have to be up at any time, you know, that kind of thing. And it usually helps me reset, especially for the week, you know. So like, on a weekend, or just have a long Sunday afternoon up and then, like, I’m good, you know, first of the week. So I do sleep a lot to take care of myself.

J. Robin Moon 47:04

Beautiful self care in service to others. Reminds me of the word Ubuntu. I am because you are. Think that’s what you’re speaking of, Kwame Danny and Christian. This was the perfect Episode One for the season two that we can we’re kicking off. Thank you so much for being part of our tribe. We are as blessed and lucky to have you as you might feel that you know you have us so thank you so much for sharing your story for Team North Port Saint Joe with us today. We deeply appreciate your insights.

Dannie Bolden  47:37

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Krystal Lee  47:41

Yes. Thank you all so much for being here with us and for sharing your stories with us. There are so many lessons and tidbits and nuggets that I think folks can take away from your shared experience and apply to the work that we’re all trying to do to achieve health equity for all. So again, thank you for being here with us and thank you to our listeners as always, we want this to be a two way conversation, so we’d love to hear from you, what promising practices are you using in your work to achieve health equity. What promising practices did you hear about in today’s episode that you think might be applicable to the work that you are doing? Share with us your thoughts on our interdisciplinary research leaders LinkedIn page. You can share your thoughts there, and you can leave questions for the team. And don’t forget to subscribe to Promising Practices for Health Equity so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us on this journey where every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world, until next time

Mandy LeBreche  48:48

Promising Practices for Health Equity is produced by the interdisciplinary research Leaders Program, a national leadership program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, a special thanks to our guests, our production team at Studio Americana, and to you, our listeners for being a part of this important conversation. You.

Welcome to Season 2!

Season 2, Episode 1 | August 14, 2025

• Hosted by:  Krystal Lee, J. Robin Moon, Cody Cotton, and Mandy LaBreche

Krystal Lee  0:00

Hello and Welcome to Season Two of promising practices for health equity, the podcast created by the interdisciplinary research Leaders program where we explore innovative and actionable strategies to create a fairer and healthier world. I’m your host, Krystal Lee, and I am joined by my awesome colleagues and CO hosts. J Robin Moon, Mandy LaBreche and Cody Cotton, Hey, friends!

Cody Cotton  01:53

hey.

Krystal Lee  01:55

So of course, you know, I have to start with a check in and the check in question is, what is something that is quietly bringing you peace or joy right now. I will start. I have taken up woodworking and also continuing with my learning how to restore furniture. So I recently restored a Harris and Henkel, Henkel Harris – whatever, a piece of furniture that I found for $20 at the second hand place. It’s a $1,300 piece, and I love it, and I just refinished it. It’s, it’s, it’s solid mahogany. And I took off the old varnish and the old stain, and it’s beautiful, and I love it. And when I go home, I’m going to put on the new pulls that I bought for it, and then it’s going to go in my bedroom. I’m going to be so happy about it. So that kind of work is bringing me joy?

Krystal Lee  03:32

I’m gonna toss it to Cody.

Cody Cotton  03:34

All right. I appreciate that. What is bringing me joy right now probably be my baby girl. So I have two boys, Caiel and Cymba, and my baby girl is five months old, CoriRose, and it just has been an amazing experience. The first three months, she would not let me hold her or anyone else but Mommy. I came back from our DC trip together, gathering, actually on Caiel’s birthday, and the day I came back, she was so happy to see me, big smiles. And from that point on, like we’re locked in, we’re forever now. Girl Dad! Yes, just made five months. Just made five months. So that is what’s quietly bringing me Yeah, that’s quietly bringing me joy, and loudly bringing me joy. A’ight, Robin, throwing it your way.

J. Robin Moon 04:35

Um, as you all know that I’ve been baking sourdough bread for quite some time, and I grew, I created my sourdough starter. And it was just very bravado, like, I’m gonna just create something, create a sourdough starter, and it was a little hard. And eventually I grew it. And you all helped me name it using the AI. Its name is Luna Rise. Guys for the audience. My last name is Moon, so that’s how we’re related.

J. Robin Moon 05:13

Gifting food is my thing, you know, wherever I travel, and also baking to gift is also something I’ve been doing just recently. I started, I know Baker friends, and I actually my, literally my banker who helps me with my money. He said he would like to learn how to start, you know how to bake, but I mean, he’s baked other things with us out. So I shared my Luna Rise with like, all kinds of instruction. And the other friend is a baker, but he’s done sourdoughs [but his starter] died, so I gave mine, and it just, it keeps on growing. You know, I feed it and I can, you know, it’s literally a gift that keeps on going. And that friend sent me photos two days ago of his bread that he, you know, baked using my Luna Rise. Yeah, it’s, it’s just a great gift to feed people in more ways than one. Well,

Mandy LeBreche  07:01

what’s quietly bringing me joy, because I kind of forget about it, is I revived my interest in gardening a little bit and growing some veggies. I get really into, like the prep and like planting them, and then for a few weeks, I’m into watering them. And then I kind of forget about it. So that’s why it’s a little quiet. But now, now the fruit is starting to come, and so there’s a lot of lettuce, all different kinds of tomatoes, and then some stuff maybe isn’t doing as well as I hope for, but I haven’t done it in a few years, so it feels fun to do it again. And, yeah, the kids, especially my youngest, get really excited to, like, you know, pick the cherry tomatoes from their backyard.

Krystal Lee  08:26

so season two, of Promising Practices for Health Equity. I’m super excited for this season because, as you know, this season features the IRL teams, the experience of the IRL teams and promising practices that they have either used in their projects or that have emerged from their projects, or some combination of the two. So yeah, I’m super excited to hear their stories, but I wonder why. Why do you think that it is critical for us to center the voices of the teams, as opposed to the outcomes of their work in our conversations about health equity?

Cody Cotton  09:14

I mean, I would love to start off. I think it’s really awesome to see how we’re able to shape and build the curriculum, the program in general, but it’s one thing to give them a space to show what they experience, what they learn, and what they took away from.

Mandy LeBreche  09:33

Yeah, it’s a long time that cohorts are with us, three years, two and a half to three years. So I think there’s so much learning and evolving that happens, even from what they had planned and proposed to us, in terms of what actually plays out. And I think you know for the impact, there’s other things you can go to to find out. But. Yeah, and I think so many teams had to make pivots during COVID that it’s, it’s fun to be able to learn about that. And, you know, see different tools that they used along the way.

Cody Cotton  10:15

Love that I was even thinking, the same team that entered into the program. It’s not the same that left. Mm, hmm, so much growth happened in between that

Krystal Lee  10:24

We have such a wide geographic diversity of teams too, to see how teams that are focused on particular themes, how they executed their projects, and what their experience was of that execution across the country, I think will be interesting,

J. Robin Moon 10:45

And to take even one step further back, this is this podcast in and of itself. It’s our National Program Center dissemination product to amplify our fellows’ work. So of the three seasons. Season two is the entree. It is the main entree, main dish. And I think that, you know, the audience might have heard this theme throughout the season one episodes. We started out with, you know, certain intention and aspiration and the best way that we knew at that time how to build leadership that has evolved quite a bit, and we, I think, are moving from, we have moved from giving voice to somebody who doesn’t have a voice, to actually amplifying the voice that existed, that that wasn’t being heard. I think there’s a big difference in that. And we are not talking only about successful, defined success, defined by sanitized metrics and evidence based, but really the process, the reality, how this really, actually happens, and not everybody or every research grant program might be talking about, that’s what we want to elevate. So that’s the entire reason for being in my mind this season.

Cody Cotton  12:20

I love that. I feel like I keep having a lot to say, but I think about Luis Ortega and Storytellers for Change, and he taught us so much, right, not just staff, but he taught so many of the fellows. So we get a chance to see that narrative play out over the podcast, and to see the impact he had, again, not just over us, but the fellows and the IRL program, just in general. So, I’m really looking forward to that.

Krystal Lee  12:47

I think there are a lot of lessons and takeaways I think that can be done from research that is quantitative and numbers kind of positivist focus, but I have found that the things that have been most impactful to me have been qualitative, qualitative projects, where you get to hear from people and so you know, as it relates to the practice of health, equity, right, behaving as if we are already in a space where health equity is the norm to the point of emergent strategies. By adrienne maree brown, I think it’s helpful for us to talk more about this work that we are doing and how we do it, and the experience of doing that work, and the lessons that are learned so that others can take what we have done and move it forward. And I think that the numbers are fine and rich and necessary, and I think the stories are impactful in a different way. And I think I feel a responsibility to Robin’s point to highlight and amplify those stories, and so this podcast, season two, is our attempt at doing that.

J. Robin Moon 14:12

You will also hear from some of the episodes in season two that certain teams started out with certain goals and objectives and things did not work out the way they thought they would. Does that mean it’s a failure? No, far from it. It went somewhere else, and we have all together learned how to pivot in that way. In this case, it’s actually about the final result, outcome, not metrics, but outcome in that we learn to pivot, and then we are okay with what we experience, and then we made that our promise, promising practice. So I want the audience to hear that as well.

Cody Cotton  15:00

Something that both you all said, You all both spoke to the diversity of the teams. And I know I didn’t want to throw it back on you, but I feel like we all could share some of the places that we have our teams from, even from just over the map, right? So I know one of the first ones that come to mind for me, maybe because I just want to go so bad, but Hawaii, right? I’m looking forward to all the stories and things are going to be shared.

J. Robin Moon 15:29

Hawaii, North Port Saint Joe, Florida. We have Boston, North Carolina, we have Atlanta. We have Kansas City. We have Louisiana, New Orleans, Louisiana. We have Alaska. We have Iowa.

Krystal Lee  16:08

Super Duper looking forward to talking with all of these lovely folks about their the experiences of their IRL projects, and importantly, what are the promising practices that they implemented in their projects and or what are the promising practices that emerged from their projects. And so we’ll hear about policies, practices, research approaches, community engagement, how they did that, community engagement, communication, and so on. So it’s a lot to it’s going to be I think it’s going to be great, and I would love for you all to be with us along the journey.

Tell us what is your hope for season two by painting us a picture of its impact. I can start to model. So my vision for the season two episodes is that I imagine that folks will listen to the episodes, they will hear something maybe that they’ve never heard of, or that they’ve heard of, but hasn’t they’ve never thought about applying it to research, to their research, to their work for health equity, and that they will take a look at what it involves, and potentially think about how they can apply it to their work. Apply one of these promising practices to their work. So I imagine somebody listening, hearing about something you know, going to some search engine and Googling, going to a search engine and searching for the concepts that they learned about and, you know, take a look at how they can talk more about it, or incorporate it into the work that they are doing. That’s kind of how I envision Season Two.

Mandy LeBreche  18:57

I think that, I hope that that season two will just open up new possibilities for people. I can imagine, I’m not a researcher myself, but I can imagine that at times it can seem maybe kind of isolating, like you’re confined to doing certain methods and just doing certain research tasks along the way, and I can imagine that all of our teams and fellows along the way had to make a lot of changes, and that the road was not Linear, and so I hope, by fellows and teams sharing about their process, that it can just open up new opportunities and possibilities for other people doing research to think about

Cody Cotton  19:56

I love that I’m going to speak on the other side of it, too. Because again, we hope so many people listen to it and they have aha moment. But I’m also thinking about the people who may not be researchers like you mentioned, who may see like, oh, okay, I can add value to that research team, whether you’re in community or or anything else, right? I’m just saying that this could be opportunity someone can hear it and discover what a fellowship is. Discover what does it mean to be in public health. There’s so many different ways to be in public health. So I’m also just thinking this could be a great learning opportunity and exposure, more than anything.

J. Robin Moon 20:39

I envision this season to encourage the audience out there to recognize the criticality of the process of this work in defining what community engaged research is, and honor the process. I also imagine that this season will help folks redefine what we mean by impact, impact of a certain research. What do we actually mean by that, impacting whom, impacting what and impacting what part of the research. Lastly, I imagine our season two will inspire other researchers and community leaders and those who are committed to community engaged research work, to learn, to be vulnerable. I assure you, the episode you will hear will not be about things that you can read in peer reviewed journal articles. It’s going to be very human, and it’s going to be very honest and open, and that we believe at IRL, that vulnerability, that taking chances to, you know, trust the community, changes everything. And I believe that it’s going to be reflected in all the episodes you will hear.

Cody Cotton  22:18

Well said

Krystal Lee  22:21

To that point, something else that occurs to me is I, I hope that maybe this podcast, these episodes in season two, can help communities learn how to effectively engage with research in ways that serve serve them, serve them, like insisting that the research that is done in their spaces answers questions that are important to them, that they build additional awareness of how that can be done through hearing about how IRL teams have done that work, and just to you know, build capacity for everybody who is engaged in community engaged research is what I hope comes out of season two. So thanks for that, y’all. So let’s wrap it up with our traditional last question, which is a checkout question and which is the question is, what is in one word? What is your intention for season two? I’ll start my word is, I’m going to say hyphenated, even though it’s not, it’s “capacity-building”. That’s what I hope this season achieves. I’ll toss it to you, Mandy,

Mandy LeBreche  23:51

Alright, I hope season two of the podcast inspires our listeners and viewers to think about things differently when it comes to community engaged research, partnerships, Just whatever…

Cody Cotton  24:13

expansion

J. Robin Moon 24:17

Ubuntu I am, because you are.

Krystal Lee  24:59

Thank you all for being with us today, and thank you to our listeners, as always, we want this to be a two way conversation, and we love to hear from you. Please share your thoughts with us via our LinkedIn page, where we’ll post our show notes and any resources that we discuss in this and other episodes, and don’t forget to subscribe to promising practices for health equity so that you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us, and remember, we’re all on this journey together, and every step we take together brings us closer to a healthier, more just world until next time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.